grouping problems

B

bozo699

Guest
Hey guys,
I have a 6.5-06 I had built-1:10 hart barrel timmney trigger h.s precision stock (free floating)
vz-24 action,this is a hunting wt.rifle. It will @ times shoot 3/8" groups but normally two will be touching one flyer,some times you shoot the two that are touching and then the flyer and sometimes soot one,then flyer,then last shot touching one of the others? any suggestions?
Wayne.
 
Just an opinion...

bozo699 said:
Hey guys,
I have a 6.5-06 I had built-1:10 hart barrel timmney trigger h.s precision stock (free floating)
vz-24 action,this is a hunting wt.rifle. It will @ times shoot 3/8" groups but normally two will be touching one flyer,some times you shoot the two that are touching and then the flyer and sometimes soot one,then flyer,then last shot touching one of the others? any suggestions?
Wayne.
Click to expand...

Just an opinion, but unless you had the rifle built by a "benchrest" gunsmith, I expect your 3/8" groups are all you can expect from this rifle; which is pretty good by-the-way. With this calibre, I doubt you can tune in a consistently smaller group.

Maybe someone else can chime in with better advise...virg.
 
Grouping

Is the bullet and twist compatible? Have you tried varying the seating depth? Are you dumping extruded powder? To form an opinion I'd need more info. nhk
 
nhk,
I have tried 100-140 gr bullets seems to like 120 and 130 best I have been concentrating mostly on 130 accubonds has 1:10 twist yes I am using
Imr-4350 although I have tried multiple powders Imr-4350-4831,and H-4350 seems to be the best so far.Yes I have tried diff. seating depths but I am limited as my mag won't let me go much past 3.300 I know it's not a bench rest gun if it would group 3/4 or so I would be happy! several 300 yd groups today 2 touching one flyer just like 100yd 400yd group 3.25" 2 touching one flyer??????? new barrel clean it every 10 shots got 147 rounds through it,consistantly 2 touching 1 flyer. Thanks.
Wayne.
 
Wayne,

For the heck of it, try a few 10 shot groups next time. I'm not suggesting that any of your problem is between your ears (though it could be), but settling down & quietly shooting a rythmic group might give you a different perspective about what's causing the issue. Don't hurry your group - you don't want the barrel to get overly hot - just shoot it at the rate that you might in anger.

John
 
John,
Now I don't care who you are thats funny right there!! I have never shot it more than a three shot group and don't like getting the barrel hot but I will pace myself and give your suguestion a try. It was a flustrating day @ the bench.will try tomorrow and let you know reults tomorrow night.Thanks.
Wayne.
 
I agree with virg....your probably getting all you can get out of it. I wouldn't burn the barrel up testing new loads at this point. I'd be hunting with it.

Hovis
 
Grouping

bozo699 said:
nhk,
I have tried 100-140 gr bullets seems to like 120 and 130 best I have been concentrating mostly on 130 accubonds has 1:10 twist yes I am using
Imr-4350 although I have tried multiple powders Imr-4350-4831,and H-4350 seems to be the best so far.Yes I have tried diff. seating depths but I am limited as my mag won't let me go much past 3.300 I know it's not a bench rest gun if it would group 3/4 or so I would be happy! several 300 yd groups today 2 touching one flyer just like 100yd 400yd group 3.25" 2 touching one flyer??????? new barrel clean it every 10 shots got 147 rounds through it,consistantly 2 touching 1 flyer. Thanks.
Wayne.
Click to expand...

The other suggestions about trying a larger group is good advice; I always shoot at least 5 rounds. A clean, cold barrel will usually put the first shot a little out. Any breeze can be a factor. Shoulder pressure, rest or bipod, ammunition concentricity can be a factor. Do you chronograph? How much variation is there? Is the spread horizontal or vertical? Are you single loading or shooting from the magazine? Just things to think about. nhk
 
My humble opinion, for what little it's worth:

Don't burn up the barrel. Go hunting with it.

If you want to explore extreme accuracy, buy a used benchrest rifle that is a known performer and go from there.

Be careful, though, it seems like you might have a genetic factor contributing to becoming addicted to bug hole groups. If you shoot that first one, you might be addicted for life.

Greg J.
 
You have a hunting weight rifle built on a Mauser action that shoots 3/8" groups, and you say you have shot 3-4" groups at 400yds. I think you should be thrilled, if it was mine I would be very happy with that. I would not be burning powder and bullets on a deer rifle that shoots that well. If you want a "target rifle " then look for a smaller caliber (easier on the barrel, your wallet, and your shoulder) in a configuration that is more suitable for BR/Target shooting.
 
I would be happy with that.

MRL said:
You have a hunting weight rifle built on a Mauser action that shoots 3/8" groups, and you say you have shot 3-4" groups at 400yds. I think you should be thrilled
Click to expand...

Completely agreed. I have guns that shoot Benchrest quality. I use those for Benchrest. I have guns that shoot 1 minute of Prairie dog. I use those for Prairie dogs. I have guns that shoot 1 minute of Texas White tail deer. I use those to hunt Texas white tail deer. I have some that don't shoot at all. I sell those to my buddies and harass them when they can not shoot as good as me. :cool:
 
Bozo,
try culling your brass, start with say 15 pieces of the same brand, prepped the same, full length sized, number them 1-15, shoot 3 shot groups allowing rifle to cool between groups, plot where each piece of brass shoots, after 2 rounds you'll see which pieces are worth keeping and the one's that aren't,,,, hit them with a hammer or mark them to use for fouling after cleaning,,,,,,,,I had a rifle once (338 Win Mag) that I only had 8 piece of brass for,,,,,,,,,,,, BUT,,,, all eight would shoot touching @ 100 yards

the wind is my friend,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

DD
 
Winchester 69 said:
The inconsistencies may be in your bullets.
Click to expand...

Winchester69,
Now when you say inconsistancies what exactly do you mean?All I really check for is obvious defects and I weigh each one,I make several piles 129.9 will go into one and 130.0 in another ect.ect. for work up loads I only shoot the exact weight in each 3 shots.Is there anything else I need to be checking for?If so I certianly will.
Wayne.
 
david dumas said:
Bozo,
try culling your brass, start with say 15 pieces of the same brand, prepped the same, full length sized, number them 1-15, shoot 3 shot groups allowing rifle to cool between groups, plot where each piece of brass shoots, after 2 rounds you'll see which pieces are worth keeping and the one's that aren't,,,, hit them with a hammer or mark them to use for fouling after cleaning,,,,,,,,I had a rifle once (338 Win Mag) that I only had 8 piece of brass for,,,,,,,,,,,, BUT,,,, all eight would shoot touching @ 100 yards

the wind is my friend,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

DD
Click to expand...
David,
This is GOOD ADVICE!! Thanks this is somthing I havn't tried but will.I was going to shoot today but it was windy and my wheel tractor needed attention anyway.Now I have culled obvious brass but didn't think of numbering system.Won't be able to shoot again untill mon.will let you know how it worked.
Wayne.
 
Hey Guy's,
To posts #9-10-and 11 I appreciate all your advice That is why I ask.I do already have the one hole bug.I already own BR rifles.And I own good shooting hunting rifles.As one person already said get rid of the ones that don't shoot to your friends,I DO.I think this gun has the potential to shoot
1/2" regulary but right now it's about 1 to 1.50,if all three shots were equally spaced to make 1.5" I would just say it won't shoot and get rid of it,but almost without exception two will touch less than 1/4" one out=1.5 pulling my hair out right now.:mad::confused::(
Wayne.
 
At what distance is that 3/8 inch error? What are the wind conditions? Realizing that it might be heresy, I would offer that if one round moves out 3/8" from a group that are touching on target it might not be the load, the bullet or the rifle. It can (I know it's rare but it does happen) be the shooter. It doesn't take much of a change in the way the butt is held against the shoulder to move a round 3/8 on a target.
 
OldPPC said:
At what distance is that 3/8 inch error? What are the wind conditions? Realizing that it might be heresy, I would offer that if one round moves out 3/8" from a group that are touching on target it might not be the load, the bullet or the rifle. It can (I know it's rare but it does happen) be the shooter. It doesn't take much of a change in the way the butt is held against the shoulder to move a round 3/8 on a target.
Click to expand...

Oldppc,
It's not througing one 3/8" it's througing 1" or so.I have shot 3/8"with this rifle but for the most part it shoots 1-1.5" two touching one maybe a inch or so away. Now I had thought it might be me(it happens) early in a.m while calm put 50rds.through my rimfire good groups and a few through my .222
again good groups.Now we all have off days @ the range and for me when that happens its time to fold up and head home,for me thats about 50yds to my easyboy and remote:) From my loading/shooting shack I can shoot 300yds.level and out to 600yds with a little elevation.I guess I could chuck it up in shooting vise and take myself out of the equation.Thanks for your thoughts.
Wayne
 
Wayne, 'accuracy' here means tight grouping.
Big departure from what you need in a hunting gun..

Actual accuracy is taken to center of mark, and defined in MOA.
Cold barrel accuracy is taken to center of mark with single cold barrel shots.
Cold clean barrel accuracy is taken to center of mark with single shots from a clean barrel each time.

You should first determine what you need, and then work on that.
Work on it at various abstract ranges, as you will shoot in the field, to define your capability in MOA of accuracy.
Depending on your scope, you might find that you shoot more accurately further out. You might find that your system limits xxMOA of killzone to 500yds with CB shots.
No problem, get within 500yds(stalking is hunting).

As others suggest, it doesn't make sense to burn up a hunting gun with alot of hot grouping. Better to focus on cold barrel consistency -with your system.
 
mikecr said:
Wayne, 'accuracy' here means tight grouping.
Big departure from what you need in a hunting gun..

Actual accuracy is taken to center of mark, and defined in MOA.
Cold barrel accuracy is taken to center of mark with single cold barrel shots.
Cold clean barrel accuracy is taken to center of mark with single shots from a clean barrel each time.

You should first determine what you need, and then work on that.
Work on it at various abstract ranges, as you will shoot in the field, to define your capability in MOA of accuracy.
Depending on your scope, you might find that you shoot more accurately further out. You might find that your system limits xxMOA of killzone to 500yds with CB shots.
No problem, get within 500yds(stalking is hunting).

Mikecr,
Thank you for info.The reason I ask this particular question on a benchrest forum rather than on a hunting or longrange forum is I know you guys know accuracy better than anyone else.I dont shoot bench rest compition as I don't have time to travel that much,however I shoot almost daily,it is my only hobby since I gave up alcohol.I own all types of rifles including BR rifles and I can't tell you the enjoyment I get out of clover leaf and smaller groups!
All of my 3 gun safes FULL of hunting rifles shoot under 1" the ones that didn't are long gone.I know this rifle is capable of 1" or less I will burn this barrel and 20 more just like it up if I have to but eventually I will get my 1" or I will make Hart a rich man trying!!Now I am not being a smatalic just determind and I have learned alot from you guys and appreciate all the info you have given me.I know this 7lbs rifle will never be a BR and don't expect it to be but 3/4"or 1" I DO!:)
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