Group 1 great, 2-5 poor

R

rem6mmbr

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:confused: This is what I have been finding. Group 1 will be in the high 1's, low 2's. Group 2-5 will be in the high 3's, low 4's. Before I fire the first group I will run one dry patch down the bore to remove any excess oil that was used when I put in the rifle after the last outing. After the first group, and between each subsequent group I will wet patch with solvent, brush, wet patch again followed by a dry patch. Without fail, groups 2-5 double in size. Any insight into this? Is my cleaning procedure causing this?
 
Rem

I feel safe in saying that every Benchrest Shooter I know cleans after every group, regarless of how many rounds were involed, (sighters, and the such).
I assume you are firing a clearing round after each cleaning before you shoot your group. That is a must.
My standard cleaning regiment is much like yours, when I come back from the line, I run about three wet patches through with Butches, then I brush about ten strokes, then I wet patch it untill the "brush blue" is gone, let it soak while I am reloading, then dry patch it out just before I go back for the next relay. I fire a clearing round, usually a sighter, then I feel safe in going to the record.
I don't see anything wrong with your cleaning. Maybe the barrel is suspect........jackie
 
Jackie, we have the same cleaning procedure. Thanks for putting that aside, but I have to ask, what is happening with the barrel that it could be suspect? The barrel doesn't appear to heating up and the air temp here in Mn. is still 60-70 degrees. When I fire my practice groups I use a timer and give myself the full 20 minutes between relays.
 
Rem

I do not wish to sound trite, but a good definition of a suspect barrel is one that will not agg. In other words, it will tease you with a good group, but not back it up.
A while back, I had a good talk with Jerry Hensler about this same problem, barrels that would lay down a competitive group, but then not repeat it untill it sat for a long time. He seemed to thing that residule stress might be the culprit. I don't know. I can tell you this, you are not the only person with a barrel that does that.
Heck, I have Unlimited Barrels for my Rail Gun that will shoot 5 shot "zeros", but by the time you get 10 shots in the group, it's going to be a .250+. That can be very aggravating..........JACKIE
 
Are you using wind flags? Is your first group early in the morning then as the day warms up does the conditions change?
 
Yup, using wind flags, shooting at various times of the day. Try to shoot with no wind and with gusty winds. I'm trying to improve so I want to shoot in the good and the bad both and see what I can learn. But I gotta tell ya, it can be dxxx frustrating when ya can't better your first group. But it is consistent. After the first group it will shoot consistently shoot in the high 3's, low 4's :eek:. I read Jackies second post and, sadly, he might be right on the button.
 
I am not contesting that many very successful Benchrest shooters clean after every match, however, I will tell you of a conversation that I had with George Kelbly, a number of years ago, when he was a match at Visalia. He said that he thought that most Benchrest shooters clean too much, that is more than is necessary, and that assuming a reasonable number of sighters, cleaning every 2-3 matches would be enough. After that, I began alternating cleaning and loading between matches, in some cases, using minimum sighters, going three matches before cleaning. In some cases I have seen my last group before cleaning be my best. I have also had at least one barrel that seemed to shoot better relatively dirty. Admittedly there is a huge gap between Jackie's credentials and mine, which is why I mentioned the conversation with Mr. Kelbly. Another thing, I have learned the hard way that if I do a particularly good job of cleaning between yardages, that I had better not go up to the record target just because the second and third shots on the sighter cut each other.
 
Make sure barrel is not loose. Torque it nice and tight before you do anything else.

George
 
Has it happened enough to say it's repeatable?

If the first group is always best it's gonna be tough to determine the cause. How long do you have to wait before you call it the "first" group.
 
Wilbur, I can usually only find time to shoot 2-3 times a week so I guess the rifle is sitting for 2-3 days with the bore soaking with Butchs Gun Oil. Sounds dumb, but kinda reminds of when I shot competitive muzzleloading decades ago. Some liked to 'season' the bore and cleaned strictly with hot water and dishsoap as it was believed that solvent might remove the seasoning. Also, it's happened enough that I would bet cash money that any shooter will have their best group with the first group, and I'm not a gambler. I wouldn't bet money that the sky is blue. I think I will shoot two relays without cleaning and see if group 1 and 2 are comparable. Then, since I've got nothing to lose, and I'm really stretching here, but after I finish my range cleaning I'm gonna use an oiled patch followed by a dry patch to hopefully replicate the bore condition that existed before I fired my first group.
 
I wonder if it would be worthwhile to shoot a series over a chronograph? I'm not talking about the herasy of worrying about how good or bad your spreads are, but just to check if they stay consistent from group to group.

I think it might be a lot easier to cure your problem if you can eliminate the variables that stay within acceptable bounds (I would have said constant, but that would sound really Irish), then list out & work on the remainder. An forgive me if I ride the load consistancy horse, but my favourite shooting is 1000 yards & out, where consistent loads really count
 
Carbon Ring.....Had a barrel that did the exact same thing. What I found was as the gun set with oil in the bore. It soaked the ring and removed it and the first group would be very good...then down hill from there. Easy to check though...get real aggressive with some JB bore paste. Short stroke the throat area between groups while still using your basic cleaning technique. If your groups improve...bingo. If not, then look for something else. I have one barrel that can not shoot more than 15 shots through it at a time without cleaning and it's the best shooting barrel I have, just have to keep it clean.

good luck.
Hovis
 
Just a thought

I am assuming that you set up you rests for each day's session but do not disturb them between groups. My thought is that your rear bag may not have the proper amount of sand in the bag. During set up the sand gets distributed and the rifle is rides well for the first group but as you continue to shoot the sand is settling and not giving consistent results. I would check the ears to see if the butt is working too far down the valley, bottoming out. Food for thought. Randy J.
 
need more info...

Is this gun glued in??? What Action...who did the smithing...what stock...will it fit in somone elses sand bags..????What kind of front and rear rest??? Let someone else shoot it...using your set up....sometimes another shooter will notice something that you are overlooking....are there other "Benchrest" shooters around to give advice as you shoot....
It sounds like something is heating up and either getting loose or tite, and causing a bind .....and as stated earlier....clean,clean, that bbl....it culd be loading up with copper and powder fouling and going away!! Every one battles this on a daily basis ...once you get a routine working ..stik with it!! ...Roger
PS,,,PLEASE let us know what you find.....so many ask for advice and then never say what it was that was causing the problem....it will help others in their search for a better shooting gun.....
 
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