bob finger
New member
Question for those of you who use hand dies on an arbor press in every day loading. Do you ever, and if you do how often do you full length size a case? Thanks. bob
full length sizing
- Thread starter bob finger
- Start date
Every single time. That said it's not exactly the FL sizing you may be used to. Since you asked this on a BR forum , there is a BR context for the answer since it applies to the 6PPC primarily.
Many if not most guys shooting modern BR guns using modern ejector actions often have a custom/semi-custom sizing die. The die usually performs two functions, it bumps the shoulder back allowing for easy closure on chambering and it sizes the base of the case allowing for unrestricted extraction without a telltale "click" that some bolts exhibit as they cam a fired case out of the chamber.
Even though it's considered full length sizing it is not the entire case.
Boyd Allen
Active member
IMO the non benchrest shooter's wish to avoid FL sizing is a result of having used one piece dies that size the neck way too much so that when the expander is dragged back through it, with some effort, the shoulder yields and the neck becomes cocked, guaranteeing that the loaded rounds will be crooked. There is also the issue of reloaders not being aware that they need to do some careful measuring when setting their FL dies so as not to shorten the lives of their cases because of incipient separation, and full separation. There is a lot of harm done by the continuing of the instructions by die manufacturers to turn the die down until it contacts the shell holder. Bushing FL dies are a whole different deal. Even if they size the diameter of the case body more than the ideal amount, if they are set for the correct shoulder set back (bump) and the right sized bushing is selected, brass will emerge much straighter than from a one piece die.
I had too...
Resize my brass (Sav 300 Brass for a 30/47 Hunter) about every four reloadings. I used a Lee Collet die for neck sizing. Now I use a custom made Redding Type "S" full length bushing die. Works great. I do not use a neck expander nor do I need to.
Virg
Resize my brass (Sav 300 Brass for a 30/47 Hunter) about every four reloadings. I used a Lee Collet die for neck sizing. Now I use a custom made Redding Type "S" full length bushing die. Works great. I do not use a neck expander nor do I need to.
Virg
D
dansig
Guest
I never size my brass, I only use Wilson neck die on my 6ppc, Dasher and .308, all have custom chambers, all cases are turned and trimmed to perfect fit, change in dimension on cases are less than .0000x since I can't measure any changes between firings, except neck dimension that increases about .0015 after firing and is necked down again.
.308 cases fired 20+ times, trimmed once after the first case prep.
Dasher cases fired 30+ times in 6mmBR and then fire formed for Dasher, fired 5x in Dasher and still like new.
6ppc cases fired 20+ times, trimmed once after first case prep and still like new.
the only time I use my old Lyman press is when I'm teaching reloading for beginners....
.308 cases fired 20+ times, trimmed once after the first case prep.
Dasher cases fired 30+ times in 6mmBR and then fire formed for Dasher, fired 5x in Dasher and still like new.
6ppc cases fired 20+ times, trimmed once after first case prep and still like new.
the only time I use my old Lyman press is when I'm teaching reloading for beginners....
This is another good point and if you don't spring for a bushing die can be eliminated by turning necks to a dimension that allows eliminating the expander entirely or getting to the point where it barely drags back through the neck. It it probably the biggest enemy of solid accuracy.
bob finger
New member
Guys: Thanks for the discussion, but I fear I know less now than I did when I asked the question. Perhaps it was too generic.
I'm trying to learn the minute details in order to make a major decision. I'm a rim fire bench rest shooter and testing ammo is the toughest part of the game. Some of the locals are pushing me to get into CF BR. If I do I'm gonna have a rifle built in .222 Remington LV just to see how well I can run with all the 6PPC rigs. And yes, I'm leaning toward jumping in with both feet.
My big mental stumbling block is reloading. At one time I loaded about 50K shells a year for skeet, a job I despised, especially reloading the .410 which is a real pain. Do I want to reload again? I don't yet know the answer or many of the details thus my question. I understand a bit about neck tension, fire forming brass, bullet seating etc but no where in my reading has my original question been answered. I see the guys with their hand dies and arbor presses being meticulous in getting necks sized, bullets seated etc. I have never seen someone with a big press full length size a case; thus my original question. If I do this I want to be as precise and accurate as I possibly can be as I have set the bar quite high ie my triple deuce against the 6 PPC. I'm doing this for fun, not to win HOF points as I'll leave my heavy competition to rim fire BR. Does my explanation change this discussion? Thanks again. bob
I'm trying to learn the minute details in order to make a major decision. I'm a rim fire bench rest shooter and testing ammo is the toughest part of the game. Some of the locals are pushing me to get into CF BR. If I do I'm gonna have a rifle built in .222 Remington LV just to see how well I can run with all the 6PPC rigs. And yes, I'm leaning toward jumping in with both feet.
My big mental stumbling block is reloading. At one time I loaded about 50K shells a year for skeet, a job I despised, especially reloading the .410 which is a real pain. Do I want to reload again? I don't yet know the answer or many of the details thus my question. I understand a bit about neck tension, fire forming brass, bullet seating etc but no where in my reading has my original question been answered. I see the guys with their hand dies and arbor presses being meticulous in getting necks sized, bullets seated etc. I have never seen someone with a big press full length size a case; thus my original question. If I do this I want to be as precise and accurate as I possibly can be as I have set the bar quite high ie my triple deuce against the 6 PPC. I'm doing this for fun, not to win HOF points as I'll leave my heavy competition to rim fire BR. Does my explanation change this discussion? Thanks again. bob
This makes it easier. First off if you go to a few matches you'll see exactly the reloading angle and equipment involved in 2-3 sessions.
That being said, don't, repeat don't, build a .222 . First of all it s in fact harder, not easier to learn to shoot. If most are shooting 6PPC's it's for a good reason and frankly it's a lot easier for you with guys that can relate with loading tips, bullet selection, powders, etc., etc.
Lastly a decently built PPC is very marketable if you decide to sell it. A 222 considerably less so.
Lastly, lastly, don't build one, you can buy a great one here on the classifieds. Far more BR guns come up than .22's and you can get a great gun at a fraction of the cost, even if you have to spring for a new barrel immediately.
Learn to shoot what you need right from the start, it's far cheaper in the long run anyway.
here is a pic of my reloading setup. lots of guys around these parts use the smaller RCBS Partner press for FL sizing duties. there are some other presses that are similar in size i've seen too.
i haven't been shooting BR that long but with that being said, i've never seen anyone NOT FL size their brass. the matches i've attended include countless local club BR matches, about a dozen regional level matches and one nationals event.
i haven't been shooting BR that long but with that being said, i've never seen anyone NOT FL size their brass. the matches i've attended include countless local club BR matches, about a dozen regional level matches and one nationals event.
Boyd Allen
Active member
I have a tight neck (Hart barrel).222 that is on one of the prototype EDGE stocks. I have shot it a lot in years past, exclusively for group. When I got started with the rifle, before it was restocked, I used a set of custom fitted Wilson dies, and neck sized numerous times until the brass got tight. The reamer had been built to match brass from my die. I had the usual resistance to FL sizing from my days of shooting factory chambers and one piece dies. When I sized the brass (carefully so as not to bump the shoulders excessively, it was sort of like using a body die, because I had missed on the neck dimension of the reamer (first try at that method, later ones worked well) so I put them through the Wilson neck die in a two step process, and braced my self for what I had experienced before, less accuracy that when neck sizing, but this was not to be. It shot better. From that point on, I FL sized every time, and the rifle shot well. The need to FL size is directly related to pressure, which relates to velocity. With my .222s I found that there were lower pressure loads that would shoot very accurately in perfect conditions, but on a day in day out basis, I found that for the 53 gr. bullets that I shot, that I needed the advantage that 3,250 gave me over 3,000 to help deal with the wind. I was shooting over flags, on a range where the topography was complicated, and conditions tend to be "interesting". The rifle is in still in the safe, where it has been for many years, because even though it has turned in many groups in the low twos, and since restocking with a professional glue in, a number in the 1s. The reason that it stays there is that it is easier to shoot consistently small under a variety of conditions with my PPCs. I have no idea why someone would choose to build a .222 over a 6PPC when starting out in benchrest. Having shot both extensively, it makes no sense to me.
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bob finger
New member
Thanks fellas' I'm listening, really I am. Others have said that if they ever get rid of the larger caliber rule for hunter class 6ppc would die shortly after and everyone would go back to 22 cal. Sounds like those of you who have posted don't share that observation. I do appreciate the guidance. bob
ps: Boyd I've been looking for a used .222 BR rifle for several months now. In that time I've turned up exactly one, and it did not interest me. Everyone must be like you and have theirs so far back in the safe they have forgotten about em.
ps: Boyd I've been looking for a used .222 BR rifle for several months now. In that time I've turned up exactly one, and it did not interest me. Everyone must be like you and have theirs so far back in the safe they have forgotten about em.
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Centerfire
Member
Possibly the Gene Beggs, no turn, family
You might like to consider one of the Gene Beggs, no turn, cartridges he champions.
You might do a little research and or get in touch with Gene.
Might even consider on of his rifles.
Good time to visit his range.
Centerfire
You might like to consider one of the Gene Beggs, no turn, cartridges he champions.
You might do a little research and or get in touch with Gene.
Might even consider on of his rifles.
Good time to visit his range.
Centerfire
Just for fun and relaxation
In my opinion,Here is the best approach to answering your question/satisfying your curiosity. There are two fairly recently published books,by two Hall Of Famers in the Sport of Benchrest Competition. One by Tony Boyer. “The Book Of Rifle Accuracy” http://www.rifleaccuracybook.com, and “Extreme Rifle Accuracy” by Mike Ratigan. http://www.amazon.com/Extreme-Rifle-Accuracy-Mike-Ratigan/dp/0979252806.
Both these books are great reference tools for the beginner as well as those who think they know everything there is to know about bench rest competition. After you digest the sections related to Reloading/Full length sizing brass,you will be armed with some of the basic practices that helped get both these gentlemen into the Benchrest Hall Of Fame. This Sport is a lot of fun when you learn the Basics. You may even decide to "UP" the bar a little once you get established. Hope this helps.
Glenn
In my opinion,Here is the best approach to answering your question/satisfying your curiosity. There are two fairly recently published books,by two Hall Of Famers in the Sport of Benchrest Competition. One by Tony Boyer. “The Book Of Rifle Accuracy” http://www.rifleaccuracybook.com, and “Extreme Rifle Accuracy” by Mike Ratigan. http://www.amazon.com/Extreme-Rifle-Accuracy-Mike-Ratigan/dp/0979252806.
Both these books are great reference tools for the beginner as well as those who think they know everything there is to know about bench rest competition. After you digest the sections related to Reloading/Full length sizing brass,you will be armed with some of the basic practices that helped get both these gentlemen into the Benchrest Hall Of Fame. This Sport is a lot of fun when you learn the Basics. You may even decide to "UP" the bar a little once you get established. Hope this helps.
Glenn
bob finger
New member
Glenn: Thanks I have both books and am very fortunate to shoot rim fire with and to have Tony Boyer as a friend. No one, absolutely no one has worked as hard as Tony in this br game we love. What I would love to have is several years worth of earlier Precision Shooting mags. I subscribed for about 3 years and renewed a month before the demise. I miss that one, even if it was kind of boring toward the end. bob
Ok Bob......You have good tastes in choice of Friends and Books. Another suggestion. Just build/buy a rifle and dive right in. I don't see anything wrong with that approach.That's what I did.
Glenn
mwezell
Mike Ezell
Bob, invariably, someone will come on and say something opposite. It's just how it is, here.
But, my advice would be to dump the hand die idea for sizing..of any kind. They're fine for seating, but I've yet to find a problem with a Redding Competition style seater, and it fits a press the same as does my threaded sizer....So, that just keeps things convenient for me and produces ammo that's equally straight and good.
IMO, fl sizing with a threaded bushing style die is the way to go. It's no big deal to get custom dies...OR, have reamer that produces a chamber that works well with off the shelf dies, such as the Redding type "s" full. Both ways work equally well in my experience.
There's a lot of voodoo to sort through in this game, as you know. Just because so and so does something, doesn't necessarily make it better....sometimes it is.
I'm results oriented and go with what I prove to myself works best for me. I don't need to impress anyone else. So, if I prefer a threaded die, AND it produces at least equally good ammo, I'll use it.
This is all about enjoyment, but it's more enjoyable to shoot well and contend. If you can contend with what you are comfortable using...go for it. Better still is when you can beat the "popular" way of doing things with what you determine to be just as good or better.
Some advantages are only advantages because we think they are. I look for tangible advantages, first, then worry about the feel good stuff, later.
Keep it as simple as you can and still get the results you want. Hand dies are contradictory to this...at least IMO.---Mike Ezell
But, my advice would be to dump the hand die idea for sizing..of any kind. They're fine for seating, but I've yet to find a problem with a Redding Competition style seater, and it fits a press the same as does my threaded sizer....So, that just keeps things convenient for me and produces ammo that's equally straight and good.
IMO, fl sizing with a threaded bushing style die is the way to go. It's no big deal to get custom dies...OR, have reamer that produces a chamber that works well with off the shelf dies, such as the Redding type "s" full. Both ways work equally well in my experience.
There's a lot of voodoo to sort through in this game, as you know. Just because so and so does something, doesn't necessarily make it better....sometimes it is.
I'm results oriented and go with what I prove to myself works best for me. I don't need to impress anyone else. So, if I prefer a threaded die, AND it produces at least equally good ammo, I'll use it.
This is all about enjoyment, but it's more enjoyable to shoot well and contend. If you can contend with what you are comfortable using...go for it. Better still is when you can beat the "popular" way of doing things with what you determine to be just as good or better.
Some advantages are only advantages because we think they are. I look for tangible advantages, first, then worry about the feel good stuff, later.
Keep it as simple as you can and still get the results you want. Hand dies are contradictory to this...at least IMO.---Mike Ezell
Go with a PPC
And when that one doesn't work go with another PPC. Surely you can believe that...surely. But, if you can't help yourself, maybe you'll get the best .222 in the whole lot of them and wear folks out. Personally, I'd go with a 222-1/2 but that's just me and my need for trouble.
It ain't about the caliber anyways but rather your luck about having a good shooting rifle - a winning rifle. That's the bottom line.....in all this talk. That you're more likely to get a superior PPC rather than a deuce is a goshdarn gimme.
And when that one doesn't work go with another PPC. Surely you can believe that...surely. But, if you can't help yourself, maybe you'll get the best .222 in the whole lot of them and wear folks out. Personally, I'd go with a 222-1/2 but that's just me and my need for trouble.
It ain't about the caliber anyways but rather your luck about having a good shooting rifle - a winning rifle. That's the bottom line.....in all this talk. That you're more likely to get a superior PPC rather than a deuce is a goshdarn gimme.
Tim, Mike E and Wilbur have given you some damn good advice. For your own good, listen to them. Please forget the .222 unless you just want to burn powder and have no desire to compete. I have one of the best .222s in my area and on a good day it will come close to a 6PPC, but if the PPPC shooters are half trying, I don't have a chance. Don't try and reinvent the wheel or what worked 30 years ago. The PPC is so popular for a very good reason.
Rick
Rick