Full length sizing

Lynn said:
Jay is your "Gizzy" a barrel stub?
Lynn
Click to expand...

It is similar to a barrel stub with the reamer run into it. But I just make it with an oversize neck and make the shoulder match the brass that I'm checking. You can't really use a chamber gage unless it is made with the same chamber reamer. So, with factory chambers, you just make a generic "gizzy" and use it. I have a lot of 416 and 303 material so that is what I use.
Opinions vary.
 
Larry Willis said:
Jay,

The belt isn't needed on any caliber, except for the 300H&H and the 375H&H. The initial reputation of those calibers was so great that most manufacturers were convinced that no other magnum caliber would sell, unless it also had a belt. That's the only reason there are so many belted calibers today - marketing.

However, there are now quite a few really spectacular belted magnum calibers available today. You just need to adjust your procedure when reloading them. The shoulder does need to be bumped (but very slightly), and your case width needs to be measured. Ignoring your case width will shorten the life of your brass, because sooner or later your handloads just won't chamber. It serves no good purpose to push the shouder back if that's not the problem.

- Innovative
Click to expand...
I think the belts stayed because that was a good source of brass to build new cartridges on, like Wby, Ackley and others. And I think that it is still a requirement on the 458 Win Mag, 458 Lott, etc.
We now have good 416 Rigby, 404 Jeffrey and WSM brass available from Norma. Lapua has us covered with a lot of other brass needs. If one is already tooled up for the 300 Imp., like the Baers, and a dozen similar chamberings, stay with it. But if you are starting out I think it is not a good choice to encomber yourself with a belted case.
Opinions vary,

Jay, Idaho
 
Jay,

There's no doubt that the two H&H cases are the parent case for numerous different calibers, and you're right ..... that's another reason they stayed with belted cases. Before I perfected the Belted Magnum Collet Resizing Die - I also hated to reload them. Now that the only reloading problem related to belted cases is solved ..... it's whole new ball game.

The new non-belted magnums came along just to sell more rifles, and most of them have even more "bonus problems" of their own. That includes extreme high chamber pressure, frequent fail to feed symptoms, limiting magazine capacity, and some of them will become lost in history. Everyone gets to pick what they like best. My favotites are the .300 Win. Mag., the 7mm Rem. Mag., and the .338 Win. Mag. (Great performers and they'll be around forever.)

- Innovative
 
Update

Ok....here is what I learned today through some testing. Like I said, I don't have all of the measuring tools I need yet, but here it goes.

The first thing I did was decap all of my brass using my neck die WITHOUT a bushing....the brass was un-touched. This ensured that I wouldn't have any half ejected primers in the way when I tried to take the shell out of the shell holder.

I then measured and recorded the measurments off of a bunch of brass. I used my caliper and measure again with my micrometer All of my brass is numberd and kept in order. I measured the following places:

1. I measured at the point just before the sholder.

2. I measured half way between the sholder and the belt.

3. I measured just above the belt...as close to it as I could get.

I then put a piece of brass in the shell holder and ran it up all the way WITHOUT THE DIE. I then screwed the die down untill it just made contact with the brass. I don't know exactly where it touched the brass....just that it touched. This is where I started the test.

I then screwed the die in one full turn and ran a lubed case in and measured the same three places (I marked the spots with a marker). Now, this far out the neck has not even gotten to the bushing yet. Then I screwed the die in another full turn and did it again (with another piece of brass) and measured....and again....and again....and again....untill the die body touched the shell holder.

The results. Well I am sure when you read this the first thing to run through your mind is that this guy shouldn't be allowed to even OWN a gun....let alone load for it and shoot it around other people....but here it goes...

As expected, the point at the sholder and the point half way down the case started to get smaller...little by little....as expected. BUT....the base of the shell...just above the belt....NEVER CHANGED.... .514" FROM BEGINING TO END.... .514"

My gut feeling.....probably totaly wrong....is that the case gets longer as it gets squeezed. Thus, the imediate feeling of the bolt getting slightly harder to close after I have sized them. Not fatter, as some have sugjested. And....my die is too long to bump the sholder back....it grows and I am unable to get it back to where it should be. I need to either shave off some of the shell holder or turn a little off of the die body so that I can get the sholder back some.

Now, if I had the proper measuring tools, (like I PLAN to) I would already know the answer.

Tell me....Do I need to shop for a bigger brain also:confused:.


GO AHEAD.....I CAN TAKE IT!!!:eek::D:eek:
 
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Tod,

If I read right & you can close the bolt easy on fired brass, why bother with the partial sizing step? A Lee collet die will size the neck of the case without any disturbance to the case body - and they have 'em in .300 Weatherby http://www.leeprecision.com/cgi/cat...=1217825161.299&CODE=1040&CATEGORY=Rifle+Dies.

If you do a search on old subjects here, you'll find that John Valentine wrote an outstanding instruction on how to adjust that die correctly (& it ain't exactly how Lee suggests that you do it).

Apart from getting your issue out of the way, the Lee die sizes the necks with amazing concentricity, up there with a lot of the expensive gear

John
 
Tod Soeby said:
Ok....here is what I learned today through some testing. Like I said, I don't have all of the measuring tools I need yet, but here it goes.

The first thing I did was decap all of my brass using my neck die WITHOUT a bushing....the brass was un-touched. This ensured that I wouldn't have any half ejected primers in the way when I tried to take the shell out of the shell holder.

I then measured and recorded the measurments off of a bunch of brass. I used my caliper and measure again with my micrometer All of my brass is numberd and kept in order. I measured the following places:

1. I measured at the point just before the sholder.

2. I measured half way between the sholder and the belt.

3. I measured just above the belt...as close to it as I could get.

I then put a piece of brass in the shell holder and ran it up all the way WITHOUT THE DIE. I then screwed the die down untill it just made contact with the brass. I don't know exactly where it touched the brass....just that it touched. This is where I started the test.

I then screwed the die in one full turn and ran a lubed case in and measured the same three places (I marked the spots with a marker). Now, this far out the neck has not even gotten to the bushing yet. Then I screwed the die in another full turn and did it again (with another piece of brass) and measured....and again....and again....and again....untill the die body touched the shell holder.

The results. Well I am sure when you read this the first thing to run through your mind is that this guy shouldn't be allowed to even OWN a gun....let alone load for it and shoot it around other people....but here it goes...

As expected, the point at the sholder and the point half way down the case started to get smaller...little by little....as expected. BUT....the base of the shell...just above the belt....NEVER CHANGED.... .514" FROM BEGINING TO END.... .514"

My gut feeling.....probably totaly wrong....is that the case gets longer as it gets squeezed. Thus, the imediate feeling of the bolt getting slightly harder to close after I have sized them. Not fatter, as some have sugjested. And....my die is too long to bump the sholder back....it grows and I am unable to get it back to where it should be. I need to either shave off some of the shell holder or turn a little off of the die body so that I can get the sholder back some.

Now, if I had the proper measuring tools, (like I PLAN to) I would already know the answer.

Tell me....Do I need to shop for a bigger brain also:confused:.


GO AHEAD.....I CAN TAKE IT!!!:eek::D:eek:
Click to expand...

Todd
Read post #18 then call Larry at innovative and buy the Belted Magnum Collet Resizing Die. It resolved my problem. KIS: keep it simple!
vinny
 
Larry,It sounds like you make a pretty nice die,however I have no need for one as my cases don't have a belt.I agree with you 100% on bumping the shoulder ,keeping it to a minimum,you will not have any problems,excessive bumping will cause the case failure if done repeatedly(I have seen this happen) and wasn't a belted mag.I know how to measure my cases for the correct bump,I do it everytime I load them and it never exceeds .002.
Why don't you just tell Tod ,"buy my die,it will fix your problem", .

Tod, a nice fix to your problem would be to have dies made for your chamber with a couple fired cases,Hornady did this for me and they are beautiful dies,I was having a problem with sizing the cases by the web area and after getting their dies that solved the problem.
 
I originaly was going to, but price got in the way. I now have another BBL on order since I wil have over 800 rounds through it. I shot it in both LG and HG....and 10 shot groups are tough on small BBL's, especialy in 300 wby. The only way I would consider it is if I baught my own reamer. The problem is I am not sure my nexy gun will be in 300 wby. I am backed down to 2880 fps with 210 bergers with great results, but a lot of 30 cal guys are saying to back it down another 100 fps to find the best "sweet spot". I don't know that I need a 300 wby for those velocitys.
 
Matthew,

Custom dies are limited to work reliably in ONLY one particular rifle. Our Belted Magnum Collet Resizing Die works on over 20 different belted calibers (without buying different size collets), and it allows you to make your belted magnum handloads fit perfectly without needing any custom dies.

Here's why ....

Conventional FL resizing dies are always made to resize handloads to fit the smallest size chamber in any given caliber. Therefore, you can always adjust the setting of your FL die "upwards" to set the exact headspace, and then there's no need for a custom die. I strongly advise against grinding down any shellholder or resizing die, because that's a sure sign that someone doesn't fully understand the real cause of some resizing failure.

If you're using Redding S-Series FL (bushing type) dies you can also control teck tension, without using an expander plug. That's what I use, and I explain the many benefits of this setup in the TECH TIPS section of my website. Visit www.larrywillis.com and check it out - it's free.

- Innovative
 
Tod , I shoot my 30WSM with 210 bergers at 2850 and seems to work pretty darn good.
 
Tod Soeby said:
I am backed down to 2880 fps with 210 bergers with great results, but a lot of 30 cal guys are saying to back it down another 100 fps to find the best "sweet spot". I don't know that I need a 300 wby for those velocitys.
Click to expand...

Tod,

Give some thought to using the 300 WSM, Norma brass. You can have a reamer ground (I suggest PTG) to make a chamber about .003 larger than a Redding FL bushing die. This is the easy way out and you end up with a reamer that can be used for many barrels.
I hate belts.

Jay, Idaho
 
Gee Matt Ya Think?

Dont let Matt fool you with "pretty darn good". A 3.998 with a 98 and a 4.6 with a 97 yesterday in WV is a step above "pretty darn good". Good shooting again Matt. Glad to see you are putting all that knowledge I gave you on the road trip to Iowa back in '05 to good use! ;)

Later
Rob
 
For what this is worth. I fought belted case for years and was never happy. Like Larry said I was dumb enough to turn the face off of one of my F/L dies by 0.030" and still no joy. What really got me mad about this was I knew better. I knew from JERRY SHANNON back in the seventies that the problem was the belt. If any of you guys are long in the tooth like me, you will remember JRRY was a heck of a gunsmith and wildcatter, from Spanaway, Washington. The Man was the only guy I had ever meant that would prove to anybody that the cases (belted) really needed to headspace off of the shoulder. He would cut belts off and use his reamers to cut belt-less chambers to use his cases.

I fought this crap problem for more years than I care to remember. Then I discovered an ad on the Internet for Larry's die. FOUR YEARS LATER and the smile has not left my face. Thank you Larry!

One of the often quoted wrong information that is told about the first belted case, I've seen in print is because of SXS double rifles. The fact is the belt was used by H&H as a means to control feeding in there bolt action Mausers.

You all that don't think that Larry's die will solve the problem, have a happy time with the theories. :)
 
Big Al said:
One of the often quoted wrong information that is told about the first belted case, I've seen in print is because of SXS double rifles. The fact is the belt was used by H&H as a means to control feeding in there bolt action Mausers. :)
Click to expand...
From the reading that I have done, the double rifles used a RIMMED cartridge, kind of like a shotgun has. Those cartridges would not feed consistently in the new Mauser actions so the belt was adopted as a means of headspacing on the shoulderless cartridges. The 375 H&H was the first belted ctg, from what I have read.
The above may or may not be true.
 
Big Al .........
Thanks for the complements. Developing the Belted Magnum Collet Resizing Die was a real major project, and it's worth it whenever I hear customers that use it.

Jay ..............
The main reasons the "belted cases" came on the scene is that the case neck on the old H&H magnums were so shallow that they caused the firing pin whack to be absorbed. The belt was added to give the case a positive forward stop.

H&H originally made such wildly successful belted magnums, that firearm manufacturers were convinced that they needed a belted case too. Marketing was convinced that nobody would want a non-belted magnum. Since then, the belt has never been needed on any other caliber.

It's a bit ironic that Marketing is now pushing non-belted magnum calibers, and they're loaded with their own unique problems.

- Innovative
 
Jay said:
From the reading that I have done, the double rifles used a RIMMED cartridge, kind of like a shotgun has. Those cartridges would not feed consistently in the new Mauser actions so the belt was adopted as a means of headspacing on the shoulderless cartridges. The 375 H&H was the first belted ctg, from what I have read.
The above may or may not be true.
Click to expand...

That is my understanding also. The .375 Flanged in SXS rifles. The first belted ctg was and is the .375 H&H. All of my reading on the subject points in this direction. Now the big question remains where did I read about the use of the belt in Mauser rifles? My problem is I read to much and forget the source. Another factor is lending books that people treat as if they are their own, and never come back home.
 
Update

I just took some more measurements with the new headspace gauge. As I suspected the brass is growing in LENGTH.... .003 to be exact. I measuered 5 cases...all were the same going in, and all GREW .003". They are NOT swelling just above the belt.

I am going to try an get to Pella this weekend, so that leaves me just a couple of days to figure out what to do. Or not!!! I figure my options are these:

1. Do the same thing as I have been dooing all along...FL size the brass and just let them grow...The bolt closes very easily with the growth.

2. Just neck size untill I get things figured out.

3. Take either the shell holder or the die to a machine shop and take at least .005 off and see if I get a bump. Or...take 10, or 15 thou off and turn the die out from the shell holder.

4. Just buy factory 300 wby loaded with 210 Berger VLD's with a .328 loaded neck diameter, 74 grains of RL 25, 215M primers, all loaded to 3.795 " OAL. :D :D :D

Is there anoter option or two??

HELP....I'VE FALLEN .....AND I CAN'T GET UP!!!! :eek: :eek:
 
Tod,
Remember that headspace gauges don't check case width - only length. Your cases can be too wide to fit in your chamber, and they'll still check fine in a headspace gauge.

Grinding down your shellholder can (and often does) push your shoulder back too far. Then your die will increase your headspace clearance. When determining if you need a Belted Magnum Collet Resizing Die, you need to see what's happening to your case width at the pressure ring, AND be sure to take the measurements after the case has beed reloaded at least 2 or 3 times.
Shellholders are cheap, but I'd recommend holding off on the grinding wheel and check your measurements again.

- Innovative
 
I have m700 Sendero in 300WM. Factory chamber. I used to neck size only to keep and enlarged portion of the neck in place for better cartridge alignment for the bullet to be better centered with the bore. It helped accuracy considerably. However, bolt closure using this method would become difficult. And lug galling might be a real possibility.

Then I read Froggy's article in 6mmbr on reloading and his method of always using FL resizing, with a slightly modified die (neck dia.). Everyone should read this article.

Recently, I have full length resized some cases. Now, how to check headspace?

With my particular bolt and action, and with a stripped bolt, no firing pin, no ejector, I have found that I can measure my forward and rearward bolt movement with feeler gages between the bolt handle leading edge and the action. With empty chamber, about 0.013" movement is noticed. With a FL resized case in the chamber, 0.001" movement. This, when using an RCBS standard die for resizing. Also, before and after measurements ahead of the belt shows 0.0012" ( this is 1.2 thou, not 12 thou) of resizing has occured.

The stripped bolt drops on it's on accord (weight) on these resized cases. Perhaps perfect headspacing.

I consider the only problem now might be (and might not be) cartridge (bullet) alignment with the bore. I will be purchasing a new barrel and reamer so that I can tighten up chamber tolerances (at freebore, neck, and shoulder).

Perhaps there is a problem with measuring headspace in this manner, if there is, please let me know. Other than that, this has opened my eyes, made me realize FL sizing is beneficial, but you might want a correctly fitted chamber to compliment this.
 
Longshooter,

You're right. FL resizing is beneficial. Even benchrest shooters are doing it. You need to know exactly what it's doing to your cases. Always take accurate measurements, so that you'll know how how your cases fit in your particular chamber. Belted calibers require a bit more care with case width, and guess work usually results in headspace separations.

- Innovative
 
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