Front Rest - Co-Axial or ???

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Phil3

Guest
After my first try at 300 yard shooting, and also evidenced at 100 yards, it is apparent I need a front rest. A bipod isn't going to cut it, from what I can tell. What are the pros and cons of the co-axial type vs the independent adjustments for elevation and windage? For now, I will be shooting an AR15 with Evolution Gun Works blocks on it so it rides the bags. Then, some bolt action rifle(s). I don't know that I will be competing in anything for a while, and not sure what one gets in something like a Farley over something much cheaper. Finish is obviously superior, but what about functionality, since they do the same thing. I was looking at the Caldwell co-axial type and the Sinclairs model Gen II. Others recommended in the $400 - $500 range (complete), or is that not enough to get something decent?

- Phil
 
Buy once,cry once

Get the best rest you can afford.
I bought 2 crappy rests prior to my Farley,and wasted some $ on doing so.

I'm very pleased with the Farley.I changed the tension screws with Butch Lamberts' and put an Edgewood bag on it.I also losened the boot on the handle,it pinches the frame.It works fast and is very very stable (weighs a ton).
And yes my average results went up a bit.

There are lots of manufacturers of high end rests,but stay away from Caldwell,...,it's inferior quality and not as durable.

Maybe such a rest is overkill for an ar,but if you go bolt in the future it will be needed.So as said buy once,cry once.
 
Caldwell Coax.... You can put a Lamborghini body on a 61 VW Bug but its still a Bug:D
Caldwell products (rear bags included)of any kind are fine for sighting in a deer rifle once a year.
You can even force some of them to work for beginners bench shooting. I started this hobby with a Caldwell BR 1000. I gave it away after using a mid grade rest at a local comp.
The BR 1000 is a simple rest with loose tolerances and flawed designs. I seriously doubt they were able to copy a much more complex coax rest with any presicion;)

I still don't have a coax. Heres my understanding of the coax systems and anyone correct me if I'm wrong.
They allow faster target aquisition with less disturbance to the shooter and rear bag. Very helpful for Pro shooters trying to shoot fast with a chosen condition.

Limitations... and still correct me if I'm wrong here. They can be tempermental with guns of different weights. For instance, Set the tension to work smoothly with light varmint gun and it won't work to well with a heavy F-Class gun. And vice versa.
 
Phil,

The farley is an excellant rest. However, since you are just starting out, I recommend the traditional bag squeezing. Go to Hart's website and look at their BR rest. Get a basic one with no windage or speedscres. Then call Dave Dohrman (sp?) who advertises in the rest Classifieds and get a good rear bag with rabbit ears. You'll be all set for less than half the money of a farley. Then as you gain experience and want to try a co-ax...buy or borrow a farley to try. You can get almost all your money out of the Hart if you decide to sell it but it is sure a good rest that you'll want to keep it around.

Phil, there are a lot of good rests out there and one thing you'll find is all the good ones of the same type run close to the same price. Just stay away from the caldwell's

Hovis
 
Unless you are shooting benchrest score I think you'd be better off with a noncoaxial rest. The Hart, Sinclair, etc rests will work fine for F Class shooting which I believe from your other posts is what you are mostly planning to shoot.
Since the point of aim is essentially the same for every shot I believe the more stable noncoaxial rest will be better. I certainly will cost less and will not handicap you in any way.
 
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The only advantage to a coaxial rest or top is speed! A good coaxial top will work with the same tension setting in a 10.5lb rifle or a 22lb FClass rifle.
Butch
 
It is clear I am lost on the terminology with the rests, and need some help with that before I can make any intelligent choices.

- Just what is the "top"? Does it include a bag?
- "Bag squeezing". Please define.
- I gather windage adjustment is part of the "top"?
- Does "left hand model" mean for a right handed person (who controls rest with left hand), or does it mean for a person is truly right handed
- Ears. Rabbit ears, owl ears...???
- If a "top" is the assembly that the bag sits in, are these universally transferable from one rest to another?
- I presume the little screw on the side of the "top" is for windage, but what about fine elevation?

On the Harts, as shown here, http://www.rwhart.com/2009_Hart.pdf, on page 9, do all of these except the basic one have windage adjustment? For shooting at 600 yards, in either F-Class or benchrest, which one of these would be best? $500 max for the entire setup (not including rear bag). Would Hart be recommended over Sinclair? Many Sinclair models are not pictured, so hard to know what I am getting.

- Phil
 
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Attempt at an answer:

1) The rest top is the part of the front rest that holds the front bag, the bag sits in what is sometimes called a basket. Some rest tops come with a bag, some do not. You will pay for the bag either way.

2) Bag Squeezing is when, for a right handed, you curl your left hand back under the rifle stock and grasp the rear bag. The rear bag is filled less than 100% so that there is the desired amount of squeeze in it. you can change the elevation by squeezing or releasing the grip on the bag. You can can change windage by squeezing more or less left and right with the thumb and fingers. Of course these are both done at the same time, arriving at your desired point of aim.

3) Windage adjustment is part of a windage adjustable top, not all tops have an adjustment feature.

4)I would say that a left hand model is for a left handed shooter which controls the rest with their right hand.

5)Rabbit ears are tall like a rabbit, bunny ears are smaller and I think owl ears are even smaller, although they may just be smarter and less prolific.

6)Tops are what the bag sits in and they are transferable from one rest to the other as long as they have the same screw diameter and pitch.

7) I can't say for sure about the "little screw" some little screws on rest tops are to provide more tension between the bag and the stock.

Anyone may feel free to correct anything I have said.

Dale
 
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Sorry

8) Fine elevation is accomplished by adjusting what is usually one of 3 adjusting screws on the front base. Two are set on the target end of the bench with the third screw towards the shooter, the front rest is leveled left to right and sometimes front to back (personal preference). The rear screw( the one closest to shooter) is then adjusted for fine elevation. That is if you use a windage top and are not a bag squeezer or a joystick user.

Dale
 
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Butch
Thanks foir setting me straight on that. Good info to know. I do recall of reading about that specific problem but its very likely it pertained to the Caldwell coax rest specifically. I have to admit I briefly entertained the idea of buying one of those when they first came out. Reviews were not good and you here very little about them now. Thats as it should be I'm sure.

Phil

From what I gather Hart does not offer a windage adjustable top. I could be wrong but at least the ones in the catalog in your link are not windage tops. I would think they'd put one in there if they have it.
The little screw you refer too is to adjust the bag tension on the stock.
So the Harts are designed for rear bag squeezers.
Windage tops like Sinclair are for free recoil knob turners or bag squeezers too.

My preference would be to go with a Sinclair Windage Top. I'm not sure if you've settled on a particular shooting discipline but the Windage may come in handy if you want to explore short range BR with free recoil.
Light recoiling guns shoot better free recoil for me. Keeps me from botching the hold. Its slower but under certain conditions more accurate "for me"
Heavier recoil requires a hold on the rifle. Where the dividing line between light and heavy is a personal/rifle preference. No hard answers there.

If coax is your thing. Check out the Seb rest. Saves some cash$$$
I know nothing of coaxs so cannot give you a review.
Another option in coax is to buy just a base. Hart Sinclair etc and buy a Farley coax mini top. Less $$$ but still no review;)

Take your time. Think about now and the future and buy what you think will serve you no matter what type of shooting you want to do.
Don't sweat it to much tho. As Hovis said. Anything but a Caldwell is quality and you will find a use for it even if you upgrade.
By the time you feel your rest is holding you back or not job specific enough you'll have a safe full of rifles its still well suited too. just the facts as I see them:D
 
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Phil
If your after a straight rest get the John Loh or as it is sometimes called the J-J rest.
If you want to use a co-axial rest get the Farley II
You want Edgewood bags front and rear no matter what you use.
If you buy a cheaper rest in 5 years it will be worth half of what it cost you new.If you buy a Farley or John Loh the value now is better than it was 5 years ago.
Its like buying tires for your car and after 50,000 miles selling them for more than you paid for them brand new.
If you don't like those two choices contact Lou Murdica off forum and ask him what he would do if he was you.
You drive a BMW not a Volkswagen so go whole hog on your rest.
Lynn aka Waterboy
 
Lynn,

Seems like I need to go whole hog on everything... I tend not to resell things I buy, so resale value is of limited value. Maybe if I get so old, I can't shoot... Those rests you mention do not appear to come with bags, so with shipping and bags, this is near $1000. Yikes! I have to ask, are these rests really going to deliver that much more benefit than say a Sinclairs for less than half the cost? I have no doubt both the J-J and Farley are exceedingly well made, and I love well made stuff, but that is a lot of $$$ for a rest. I may just have to resign myself to the fact that shooting tiny groups or high score, in any shooting discipline, is going to cost, a lot. F/TR would get me down to a bipod, but I see Sinclairs has a fancy bipod now that is $200.

http://www.sinclairintl.com/product/5363/s

Any pros and cons in your opinion between co-axial or not? I had talked to Lou at the October NBRSA match, and if I recall, I think he said get the John Loh, but thought he may have something with "Hollings" in the name. Memory too fuzzy to recall for sure, but could have been Loh.

I told my wife you made mention of my driving the BMW and to go whole hog on the rest. Wife says to tell you, she agrees with you, and for me to buy the J-J or Farley. I'll wait until you tell me what I get for that kind of $$$.

- Phil
 
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Phil
I have a Sinclair and it is rated at 18 pounds which is something nobody here has told you yet.I also have a Bald Eagle at $580 with a 6 inch windage top on it.
The center post on both of those rests is around 1 inch in diameter and in the center of the center post is a small bolt that holds the windage top to the center post.In your Engineer mind picture this as trying to balance a frozen pizza on the tip of a pencil.If the center post was made twice as wide picture that as balancing a frozen pizza on top of a coffee cup.
The heavygun you shot was shooting off of a $2000 rest system with a 3 inch center post.Picture the frozen pizza sitting on a cutting board.
The wider the center post the better it works at supporting a gun that is torquing under recoil or has a guy pounding the bolt open and closed in a big hurry.The up and down motion of cycling the rifle is acting on the bolt that holds the rest top to the center post.On a heavygun weighing 75 pounds like the one you shot just putting it on and off the rest can ruin that little bolt so instead the rests top is threaded and the center post goes into the top eliminating that little bolt altogether.
Nothing ever gets sloppy.
As to the co-axial rests I don't own one so I can't comment on them.Gerald(Jerry) Tierney uses one and he could probaly better answer any questions you have about them.
Waterboy aka Lynn
 
Lynn,

You mean the Sinclair can hold weight up to 18 lbs only? Is that actual weight on the rest, or rifle weight? If the rest can hold 18 lbs, and half the weight of the gun is on it, that means the gun could weigh 36 lbs, a gun I am not likely to own. I think I prefer the joystick, and if that is the case, then it looks there is not other quality choice except for Farley.

- Phil
 
Phil3 said:
On the Harts, as shown here, http://www.rwhart.com/2009_Hart.pdf, on page 9, do all of these except the basic one have windage adjustment? For shooting at 600 yards, in either F-Class or benchrest, which one of these would be best? $500 max for the entire setup (not including rear bag). Would Hart be recommended over Sinclair? Many Sinclair models are not pictured, so hard to know what I am getting.

- Phil
Click to expand...

Phil
I do not believe any of the Hart rests in their catalog have windage tops. The small knob you see is for adjusting side tension on the bag. There is a matching knob on other side of top.
A "bag Squeezer" is pretty much what it sounds like. A person who makes fine adjustments by squeezing the rear bag, not by mechanical adjustments in the front rest.

Dick

Oh and a left handed Rest is for a left handed shooter , I am a lefty and use a left handed Farley, every thing is reversed. Adjusting the up and down on right handed Farley is very awkward to me.
 
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Phil
There is a poster on the centerfire forum named Butch Lambert who sells a joystick top without the base as does Farley.If a shooter already has a conventional base you would simply remove your windage top an add the co-axial top and go shooting.I think this is a much cheaper approach than going the other way but then again I already have the pedestals on hand.

You might want to checkout The Shooters Corner website owned and operated by Bob White a past President of the IBS.
If you go there look into the accessories section and see what he get for a rest base as it might be the way to go.
Waterboy
 
I'll second everything Lynn said about solid front rests......SOLID and durable are the operative words.


Note that a GOOD centerpost rest with all the mods will equal or exceed the cost of a coaxial rest by the time you make it adjustable. IMO a coaxial rest does it all, better/cheaper.

I bought 4 other rests before I got a Farley, then another one.

I love Farleys.....I'm not saying a Seb or a Lambert (Shadetree) isn't just as good, I'm saying get the coaxial! you'll be money ahead in the long run.

If you decide on the Farley Compact rest which goes on an existing base I think it's worth noting that the Compact is wimpier than the real Farley, it drops easier while shooting, and by the time you put it on a base it's quite tall. This might be a plus for shooting an AR. The Compact has one less monkey-motion than the original, it's "reversed", and consequently it's higher geared. Lean on the compact and it goes down......My Farley full-sized does not drop between shots.

My vote is for either a Shadetree or a Farley II. Shadetree if you find a good used base, Farley if you gotta' buy the whole thing.

al
 
if you are spending a grand and you are new to this

buying 1 over the other is just plain stupid,

try a few first get ahold of BR people in your areaa or go to a shoot before you buy,

I have 11 front rests and each has its advantages

Jefferson
 
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