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AVanGorder
Guest
Ford & GM
Most of their non-US plants are doing just fine.
The question I can't get an answer to is this, "If Ford, GM or Chrysler files for bankruptcy, can they terminate agreements with the UAW Union?"
Most of their non-US plants are doing just fine.
The question I can't get an answer to is this, "If Ford, GM or Chrysler files for bankruptcy, can they terminate agreements with the UAW Union?"
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RStiefel
Guest
Because they
would be restructuring, no. They can however refuse to renew their contracts upon expiration. They have had this option, as does any signatory contractor since day one. One of the problems you run into is finding enough qualified labor to replace them and not go completely broke in doing so. Phelps Dodge tried this very thing in the copper mines. They lost more money in the first quarter than they did at any time in their history. They eventually shut down almost every plant and mine. The Ford plant in China does great also. When you are paying an average of $30.00 per week per person for labor, one makes big profits. Their CEOs make as much per year as ours make in an hour. I doubt they fly around the world in $36 million dollar private jets nor pay out literally billions of dollars in endorsements to sports figures and NASCAR.
would be restructuring, no. They can however refuse to renew their contracts upon expiration. They have had this option, as does any signatory contractor since day one. One of the problems you run into is finding enough qualified labor to replace them and not go completely broke in doing so. Phelps Dodge tried this very thing in the copper mines. They lost more money in the first quarter than they did at any time in their history. They eventually shut down almost every plant and mine. The Ford plant in China does great also. When you are paying an average of $30.00 per week per person for labor, one makes big profits. Their CEOs make as much per year as ours make in an hour. I doubt they fly around the world in $36 million dollar private jets nor pay out literally billions of dollars in endorsements to sports figures and NASCAR.
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Big Al
Guest
All contract become void in bankruptcy court. In agreements before bankruptcy if there is a mutual desire have to be renegociated through the directions of the special master appointed by the court. That is the meaning of the term restructioning.
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RStiefel
Guest
I believe you're right
under normal circumstances, but these particular contracts were given their blessing by our Federal Government. As a taxpayer, I sure don't want to have to help pay for the current and future medical and retirement benefits negotiated into these particular contracts.
under normal circumstances, but these particular contracts were given their blessing by our Federal Government. As a taxpayer, I sure don't want to have to help pay for the current and future medical and retirement benefits negotiated into these particular contracts.
Not only their contracts but all those nice comfy pensioners at home can expect about a 90% reduction. You know who's gonna pay for all that at one hell of a lot more than $25bil, you and me. Study up on what the PBC is. Hint, federal pension guarantee corp. Double hint, ask the folks about their benefits before and after airlines restructured via chap. 11. Bottom line is that after the grand theatre that is Congress huddles up you better pray they help out. And I have 0 connection to the indusrty.
Exactly!
Look for this to be a very similar replay of what has occurred in the airlines industry, over the last five years................bankruptcies, consolidations, restructurings, bailouts, and in general a total dumbing down of the industry with poorer products and lower customer satisfaction rates...........Don
Bill Wynne
Active member
Why can't we do that here? Ford is an American company.
I see absolutely nothing wrong with having automobile manufacturing plants here like that. Isn't efficiency in manufacturing what it's all about?
If we can't make cars here, what then can we make? 22 rimfire Ammo?
We use cars here and we need jobs here. What is the question?
Concho Bill
I see absolutely nothing wrong with having automobile manufacturing plants here like that. Isn't efficiency in manufacturing what it's all about?
If we can't make cars here, what then can we make? 22 rimfire Ammo?
We use cars here and we need jobs here. What is the question?
Concho Bill
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RStiefel
Guest
Bill
It isn't a matter of what we can do, but rather what the Big 3 are willing to do. They don't want to spend the money to modernize the plants, they truly believe the CEOs are worth the enormous pay checks they draw and they certainly don't need to spend the billions of dollars each year they give in endorsement money. The only reason companies like Toyota are here is because they manufacture the vehicles in the few plants here that Americans buy. If we weren't the worlds largest buyer of Toyota trucks, they wouldn't have the plant here. Not when they can manufacture the same product in Japan for less than half the cost.
It isn't a matter of what we can do, but rather what the Big 3 are willing to do. They don't want to spend the money to modernize the plants, they truly believe the CEOs are worth the enormous pay checks they draw and they certainly don't need to spend the billions of dollars each year they give in endorsement money. The only reason companies like Toyota are here is because they manufacture the vehicles in the few plants here that Americans buy. If we weren't the worlds largest buyer of Toyota trucks, they wouldn't have the plant here. Not when they can manufacture the same product in Japan for less than half the cost.
Bill Wynne
Active member
That is very easy to say but it is not exactly a match with the facts.
Didn't the CEO of Ford and his people have something to do with that modern plant in South America? The guy may not be the best and the brightest but he is probably better than the brightest Senator or Representative to congress that we have now seated. What was the last thing any of them actually built?
The world is full of those who sit to the side and say why we cannot not do a thing. Give me people who who can do things. When I was in my twenties America put American men on the moon with American machines built by American workers. Where have we strayed?
Concho Bill
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tuck2
Guest
The Board Of Directors of the auto plants need to be replaced by the stock holders. The directors are the ones who approve the salries of managment and budgets. The saveings of people that have put money into their retirement accounts ( stock holders) are now the big loosers. There will be no new firearms ,cars, etc comming into my house nor will we be heading south this winter to warm up my old body. This fall in investment is caused by some 5 to 10 million scum bags who got home mortages that should not have ben allowed to get them and now are not paying the monthly payments..The senate banking and finance members should be tarred and fethered and run out of Wasington on a rail.. Why any one votes for them is beyond my understanding...
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RStiefel
Guest
Yes Bill
he did. He gave his approval for the new plant in Brazil at a cost of $1.2 Billion dollars. It is referred to as Fords plant of the future. Their future looks pretty dim right now. The plant is sort of a semi auto copy of the VW plant in Germany. Its my opinion that we have strayed from the good old times of made in America by Americans out of greed. I guess its hard to turn your back on made in China when you realize a 400% or more profit when compared to made in the USA at a 25-50 percent profit.
he did. He gave his approval for the new plant in Brazil at a cost of $1.2 Billion dollars. It is referred to as Fords plant of the future. Their future looks pretty dim right now. The plant is sort of a semi auto copy of the VW plant in Germany. Its my opinion that we have strayed from the good old times of made in America by Americans out of greed. I guess its hard to turn your back on made in China when you realize a 400% or more profit when compared to made in the USA at a 25-50 percent profit.
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AVanGorder
Guest
When you're controlled by a union, it's hard to do anything. Union says, "my man does X", Ford/GM/Chrysler in the U.S. can't say, "sorry, your man is being replaced by I-Robot". Outside the U.S. Ford/GM can do as they see best, they do and they make money.
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RStiefel
Guest
The UAW
does not make the business decisions for the BIG 3. Ford bought Volvo, Land Rover, Aston Martin, Jaguar and a stake in Mazda without the OK from the UAW. Ford finally sold Jaguar and Land Rover at a huge loss. Instead of investing money in the US plants, they put Billions of dollars into the restructuring of Volvo which created their 2007 $2.7 Billion dollar loss. They have not shown a profit from that one either. The plant in Brazil produces a niche of vehicles for that market. They are not sold in the US. Safety and clean air requirements are not a part of that equation which represents a big savings also. If one really knew how much money the retirement benefits amounted to, it is pretty modest. These benefits are based on Social Security benefits. Lets say you retire with SS at $1500.00 per month. Your retirement benefits are then also $1500.00 per month. In other words, $3000.00 per month. Thats a pretty modest retirement. The retirement accounts are not a part of the operating accounts. Instead of looking at the future expenses, they used money for the purchase of other auto makers and crazy endorsements. The BIG 3 have always been very profitable companies until they started getting greedy and making bad business decisions.
does not make the business decisions for the BIG 3. Ford bought Volvo, Land Rover, Aston Martin, Jaguar and a stake in Mazda without the OK from the UAW. Ford finally sold Jaguar and Land Rover at a huge loss. Instead of investing money in the US plants, they put Billions of dollars into the restructuring of Volvo which created their 2007 $2.7 Billion dollar loss. They have not shown a profit from that one either. The plant in Brazil produces a niche of vehicles for that market. They are not sold in the US. Safety and clean air requirements are not a part of that equation which represents a big savings also. If one really knew how much money the retirement benefits amounted to, it is pretty modest. These benefits are based on Social Security benefits. Lets say you retire with SS at $1500.00 per month. Your retirement benefits are then also $1500.00 per month. In other words, $3000.00 per month. Thats a pretty modest retirement. The retirement accounts are not a part of the operating accounts. Instead of looking at the future expenses, they used money for the purchase of other auto makers and crazy endorsements. The BIG 3 have always been very profitable companies until they started getting greedy and making bad business decisions.
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nemohunter
Guest
and the best part is they dont sell the car for any less. good ole corperate greed hard at work.
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AVanGorder
Guest
Math is True
Do some research, run the numbers, you're eyes will be opened.
How much does it cost GM for every hour their senior U.S. hourly employees work?
Same question for Toyota in U.S..
If no one buys GM cars, and GM stops production for a month, how much does GM pay their U.S. hourly employees?
Same question for Toyota in U.S..
How many hours a year does a typical U.S. plant close and how much does it cost GM?
Same question for Toyota.
How many employees at each U.S. company?
How much does it cost GM to lay off an employee here in the U.S.?
Same question for Toyota here in the U.S..
Feel free to substitute Toyota for any foreign auto maker here in the U.S.
Do some research, run the numbers, you're eyes will be opened.
How much does it cost GM for every hour their senior U.S. hourly employees work?
Same question for Toyota in U.S..
If no one buys GM cars, and GM stops production for a month, how much does GM pay their U.S. hourly employees?
Same question for Toyota in U.S..
How many hours a year does a typical U.S. plant close and how much does it cost GM?
Same question for Toyota.
How many employees at each U.S. company?
How much does it cost GM to lay off an employee here in the U.S.?
Same question for Toyota here in the U.S..
Feel free to substitute Toyota for any foreign auto maker here in the U.S.
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RStiefel
Guest
They are paid
by the hour. You don't work, you don't get paid. They aren't paid a salary. I fish with a retired UAW autoworker from Detroit. Senior or 5 year employees make no difference. They are paid the same. Now, you might be talking about the salaried employees who are not UAW members. The answers to your questions:
GM- $26.00 per hr + benefits, Toyota- $30.00 per hr + benefits
GM- 0, Toyota- I don't know
GM- production 365 days per year, Toyota- ?
GM- hundreds of thousands with contractors, Toyota- ?
GM- 0, Toyota, 0
Big 3 ship all over the globe. Toyota, Nissan, MB, BMW manufacture in the US only the top sellers in our country. We are the largest buyer of these particular vehicles. They don't have the shipping and export costs to deal with. They are also given incentives to manufacture here in the US. Land and tax breaks. One good thing about it is that it gives American workers jobs here in our country.
by the hour. You don't work, you don't get paid. They aren't paid a salary. I fish with a retired UAW autoworker from Detroit. Senior or 5 year employees make no difference. They are paid the same. Now, you might be talking about the salaried employees who are not UAW members. The answers to your questions:
GM- $26.00 per hr + benefits, Toyota- $30.00 per hr + benefits
GM- 0, Toyota- I don't know
GM- production 365 days per year, Toyota- ?
GM- hundreds of thousands with contractors, Toyota- ?
GM- 0, Toyota, 0
Big 3 ship all over the globe. Toyota, Nissan, MB, BMW manufacture in the US only the top sellers in our country. We are the largest buyer of these particular vehicles. They don't have the shipping and export costs to deal with. They are also given incentives to manufacture here in the US. Land and tax breaks. One good thing about it is that it gives American workers jobs here in our country.
Not quite true.
The last 10 or so years new hires have started at ~$15/hr and taken 5 years to reach full pay. Benefits also are doled out over the same 5 years. GM for has also used temps extensivly the last 5 or so years with some working 3+ years with out getting a permanite job. Temps have NO vacation, sick days, health ins, retirement, nothing. Miss a day? You`re out the door, and a new temp called in, remember no vacation days, no sick days. You`re at the bosses mercy if you get ill or want a day to see your son off to Iraq.
The last contract starts new hires at ~$14 / hr with limited benifits, no retirement, a 401K is now the retirement plan, and a cap of $18/hr on their wages max.
There are lots of stories on the big 3, and how the workers are screwing them, most on par with the stories on gun ownership. There may be a kernel of truth hidden someplace, from some time back, but today (the last 20 yrs) it is a whole new ball game.
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You make a good point. You forgot, however, two fairly important other points. The first is that for every guy there less than 5 years you got 5 there more than five years. The second is that you got ten other guys retired that you're paying for. The basic reality some of these kitchen table economists that have posted here don't realize is that if the ship goes down, all hands lost.