For rimfire position shooters, calfee

Camp Perry Ohio

Home of the NRA National Matches . Just west of Port Clinton Ohio,on
Lake Eries shores.
Perry as it is called is at it's 102 year for the National Matches.
Google Camp Perry Ohio.
Ranges from 200 Yards to 1000 Yards.Common fireing line about a mile long.
 
Friend Dave Milosevich

Friend Dave:

I quote from you:
"P.S. On edit - Bill, back in the day when Mary Stidworthy was shooting well, I think it safe to say that lock time was no better than it is today. That could also be said about barrels, stocks, and a host of other items. Also, tuners were not near as common though there were some crude prototypes in evidence.

So on the face of it, much of the hardware has gotten better but the scores have not. From my first and second hand observations I'm inclined to believe that the shooters have gotten better too. Better coats, slings, spectacles, etc., have all contributed to what should be higher NRA Conventional Outdoor Prone scores.

What's that leave?"

Answer: A dreamer like me.

Your friend, Bill Calfee
 
The limitations is the same, peoples vision has not gotten any better. You have to see better. Where has no improvement been made? Eye sight can not be bought. Find someone with say 20-10 vision and give them all of the best training and the best equipment and you might see and improvement.

If possible find kids with 20-5, do the same as above and new records would abound.
 
Records

George and daughter Mary Stidworthy would have to be considered some of the best smallbore shooters of all time, their records speak for themselves. Lones Wigger naturally would have to be considered one of if not the best of all times. I am most certain that if you asked Lones what the biggest reason for all of the records established in the 70's early 80"s his answer would be ammo.
 
Reason ?

Ammo Conditions rifle in tune and the shooter really ready.
and luck
Wigger has to be # 1 Look at his wins and records.
 
Keep On Dreaming, Bill.

Kathy said:
Friend Dave:

What's that leave?"

Answer: A dreamer like me.

Your friend, Bill Calfee
Click to expand...

I'm glad that you dream about these things, Bill. Many of the discoveries you have shared with us have helped improve performance even in the prone game.

As others have stated, it appears that ammo is the reason that prone scores have failed to reflect the improvements in other areas, at least on a proportional basis.

There is no single reason evident to me that explains why ammo is not as "good" today. I'm always tempted to blame busy-bodies who demand a perfect world and force changes in chemical compounds like those used in primers. But the random appearance of a really good lot of ammo today says that those kinds of hurdles can be successfully overcome.

So again, I do not have an informed opinion on why ammo is good one day and not the next. However, I do think that you and others have found a way to deal with some of the ammo anomalies - tuners.

If tuners were available that were easy to install and adjust and did not interfere with the use of iron sights, I believe they would be more widely used and contribute to better scores.

Some years ago I bought an Anschutz 1813. To test it, I got into the prone position as I would for a match except that I put a sandbag under my left hand which supported the forearm. I tried several different lots of ammo and none shot very well.

The next Sunday, I used the rifle in the little 80-shot weekly match at Los Angeles Rifle and Revolver Club where it shot much better in the unsupported position, i.e. without the sandbag. Those results were repeatable.

Over the years I've noticed that when a rimfire bullet does not go where it should, based on the shot call, that it is usually accompanied by what I can only describe as a tiny "hiccup" in the rifle. Now many will say, "duh", "you flinched, muscled, shouldered, or otherwise moved the rifle". Not so. I've shot enough to know 99.5% of the time when I screw up. This especially true when using a scope. One can not only see where the crosshairs were when the shot broke, but the complete follow through, and, when the light's right, see the bullet's path to the point of impact.

All of that tells me that there are shots where the rifle recoils differently. I think the benefit of a tuner is that it helps counter or oppose the impulse of the rifle to move in way that is different from the "tuned" harmonic balance. That is to say the combination of ammo, barrel, stock, bedding, support of the rifle, and a dozen other things that make up the system that resonates on a particular note each time a shot is fired.

I'm sure much of this has been discussed in the lengthy threads about tuners, but I'm just relaying what I've observed in my own experience.

I do not want to suggest that good scores can only be fired with a tuner. There are many good scores shot without them. I do not have them on my smallbore rifles. However, I do have a Turbo action, a Lilja barrel, a couple of stocks to pick from, and a sketch of a tuner - all sitting out in the shop. I'm hoping some elves will sneak into the shop and put them all together. I would but I'm retired and distracted by many other things, not to mention being afflicted with acute laziness.

So keep on dreaming, Bill. Maybe you'll come up with a heavier firing pin or stronger spring or something else that will make tuners obsolete or otherwise improve performance.

FWIW
 
I've never shot position but could you guys that do answer a question for me? For the BR Eley crowd there seems to have been a tendency to shoot ammo somewhat slower than several years ago, is there any tendency for the position guys to lean toward faster or slower stuff, or anybody measure their individual scoring tendencies with faster vs slower ammo?
 
Old Rifles & OLD Records

We used to have a smith by the name of Bob Hart & Walter Womack....who did great things with rifle bolts. They would change firing pins and springs and we had some great shooting rifles. N o w,there work produced speed fast and faster lock time. We need the same every shot repeatability for that very small mouse ear group. Slow fast they both work off a bench.When you are in a sling lets get it on.
Back then they also bedded on or off of wood also.
Sometime as smith "go on"...there work ideas are lost . Shooters have to train the smith again.
Smiths are not the only ones with brains.
The smith the rifle and the shooter are a team.
The shooter is key.:)
 
Stiller RF

Stiller has photos of his new RF action....Yea I want one...with the 5018 on it. A nice Prone stock,lets sling up.:)
 
Anschutz 2009,

Does Anschutz,have a new or maybe freshened action for their new Machine stock this year? No doubt about the new stock and the action isn't the 2013.
So I am wondering.
Looks like on ward and upward for Anschutz.:)
 
No, it's still a 1913 SM. The new Anchutz rifle is a Front Lug centerfire action.

Keep in mind a few things.

1. Most shooters across the globe are shooting factory rifles. This custom rifle craze is mostly an American thing, and will more than likely remain that way.

2. Many world records are still held by factory rifles.

3. Camp Perry is not the top rifle shoot on the planet. World Cup, German Nationals, and Olympics are valued much higher, and with a much deeper competitive pool to beat. Very few Olympic level shooters attend Camp Perry; it's just not important to them. So, don't consider those scores as the leading edge of ability for prone shooters.

4. Emmons uses a factory 2013 with a Lilja barrel. Factory ignition. Rajmond Debevec uses a factory Feinwerkbau (a factory something), and he's pretty much considered the very best all-around rifle shooter in the mix. Uptagrafft uses a rebarreded 1800 series that's in a basic wood stock. No change in ignition.

5. Ignition is not a topic discussed as something that's holding them back. All the shooters I have spoken with, interviewed, and collaborated with all talk of barrels and ammo.
 
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10 - Ring Service

steve b. said:
No, it's still a 1913 SM. The new Anchutz rifle is a Front Lug centerfire action.

Keep in mind a few things.

1. Most shooters across the globe are shooting factory rifles. This custom rifle craze is mostly an American thing, and will more than likely remain that way.

2. Many world records are still held by factory rifles.

3. Camp Perry is not the top rifle shoot on the planet. World Cup, German Nationals, and Olympics are valued much higher, and with a much deeper competitive pool to beat. Very few Olympic level shooters attend Camp Perry; it's just not important to them. So, don't consider those scores as the leading edge of ability for prone shooters.

4. Emmons uses a factory 2013 with a Lilja barrel. Factory ignition. Rajmond Debevec uses a factory Feinwerkbau (a factory something), and he's pretty much considered the very best all-around rifle shooter in the mix. Uptagrafft uses a rebarreded 1800 series that's in a basic wood stock. No change in ignition.

5. Ignition is not a topic discussed as something that's holding them back. All the shooters I have spoken with, interviewed, and collaborated with all talk of barrels and ammo.
Click to expand...

______

4. Emmons uses a factory 2013 with a Lilja barrel. Factory ignition. Rajmond Debevec uses a factory Feinwerkbau (a factory something), and he's pretty much considered the very best all-around rifle shooter in the mix. Uptagrafft uses a rebarreded 1800 series that's in a basic wood stock. No change in ignition.
_____
I feel that a conpany called 10-Ring Service does work on Matts rifle. So they aren't 100 % out of the box factory.
They get a lot of tender loving care.
______________________
 
You feel or you know? Neil Johnson's said they were working on his rifle, and aside from the Lilja barrel, no changes.

Also, if memory serves correct, Matt didn't shoot his personal rifle in Athens when he got the gold. His rifle was vandalized and he had to borrow a barreled action (I don't think it was a complete rifle). So, then the question is who built that rifle?

Whatever, until I have Matt's rifle in hand and inspect it, which ain't gonna happen, I guess we are all guessing.

Eric's rifle has no changes, that's from Eric himself, as we discussed at dinner during the shot show.

I don't know if Warren Potent's rifle has any changes but it's a wacky Bliker anyhow. He shoots a lilja barrel.
 
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steve b. said:
3. Camp Perry is not the top rifle shoot on the planet. World Cup, German Nationals, and Olympics are valued much higher, and with a much deeper competitive pool to beat. Very few Olympic level shooters attend Camp Perry; it's just not important to them. So, don't consider those scores as the leading edge of ability for prone shooters.
Click to expand...


As I said earlier, to find some answers americans have to look at the other side of the Atlantic Ocean... where the top rimfire position shooters shoots and win.
 
Bill,

Going back to Mary in 1978. She and her dad George shot the Remington 37 exclusively, what you would consider "slow". They shot prone but they were only part of your equation.

During the exact same time period (1976) Anschutz brought out their first speed lock. So, during this same time period that Mary was using the 37 Wigger was cleaning house in position with the speedlocked Anschutz.

Steve, a quote from you
(2. Many world records are still held by factory rifles.) and you continue by examples of rebarrels and old stocks. Our definition of "factory rifles" is surely different. Though it is true most "world class" shooters can pick up nearly any "factory" rifle and do a masterful job I'm sure their bread and butter rifles are anything but factory and its been that way as far back as a person would care to go.

bjm
 
Haven't posted here in a while but saw this topic and thought I would chime in. Having shot both benchrest and 3p: Accuracy is obviously very important for both disciplines. Its actually more inportant in the 3p and prone type shooting than you might think. Shooting 60 consecutive shots shots in the 10, and furthermore trying to get 10 real good shots in finals worth up to 10.9 points requires an accurate gun. However, for benchrest it is more critical to have the best of the best equipment.

3p more or less comes down to the shooter and the mental preparation, focus and consistency of that shooter (and of course other factors like technique, physical conditioning and execution, etc). A good gun will only do so much for you - the rest is up to you.

As steve mentioned, Mr. Emmons gun at the 2004 athens olympics was vandalized and he used someone elses gun. This gun was the 2013 with the lilja barrel. As far as the gun he is using now I am not exactly sure.

Personally I use a feinwerkbau 2700 and that gun is very accurate. IMO it is more accurate than out of the box anschutz's and is comparible with my custom winchester 52D. I was out testing ammunition with it the other day with the open sights and had a couple 5 shot groups around .200 and a couple 10 shot groups around .300. Obvoiusly not as good as some of the top benchrest guns out there but considering the open sights that is not too bad. Would a custom barrel benefit me? me, probably not. I think more than anything though if it would it would be because of the mental component of me thinking it would be better and giving me that extra confidence boost that my equipment is the very best it can be.

Lock time is not considered too much either. In fact I have very rarely heard of it mentioned at all. As mentioned, selecting the right ammunition and having other equipment such as shooting jacket and pants fit well is more important than lock time.

Just some thoughts...
Jordan
 
Ammo and give a damn

As Steve B said, the top shooters don't shoot Perry. Why, well in 2008 when Calfee quoted the scores, there was a thing called the Olympics. Which is more important, Beijing or Perry? Back in the 70's when the Stidworthy's were setting those prone records, American prone was a big deal. Everyone was shooting it. Local club matches would have 30-40 shooters, one weekend a month shooting 3200's. Now you can barely find an American prone match to shoot anywhere. If you don't train it, you won't do well at it. If it isn't important, you won't invest in it. I can tell you, if I end up shooting Perry this year it won't be with my best ammo... Many of the top US international prone shooters shoot American prone as a training tool. Many times without a scope on any-sight days. That can make quite a difference in agg scores.

In 2006, when I was shooting the Raton Firecracker 6400 (where I shot a 6397), I asked Wig why the scores were lower than what it was "back then". His answer was simple...ammo. If anyone would know, he would. Another thing to factor in is weather conditions. A 6400 is shot over four days. Camp Perry can have anything from hurricane conditions to dead calm. What were the conditions when Mary Stidworthy won? Anyone remember? Conditions are a major consideration in American prone scores. The 10 rings are huge so wind reading and endurance are more critical than absolute accuracy in American prone. As someone stated earlier, just look at international prone scores to see the progression. Before they changed the target in 1989, the highest prone score was 599. Now, on a harder target there are 13 different people with 600's. That is just in official ISSF competition.

I'm a position and prone shooter. In prone, locktime takes 2nd place to accuracy. I don't care how slow that firing pin is falling if my gun shoots good. Standing and kneeling are a different story. I want that pin going as fast as I can get it and still get reasonable accuracy. The longer it takes for the gun to go off, the further out my shot would potentially be. Since I only shoot one gun, I'll pick a fast lock time.

Just my 2c,
Eric U
 
Friend Eric U

Friend Eric U:

I quote from your last paragraph: "I'm a position and prone shooter. In prone, locktime takes 2nd place to accuracy. I don't care how slow that firing pin is falling if my gun shoots good. Standing and kneeling are a different story. I want that pin going as fast as I can get it and still get reasonable accuracy. The longer it takes for the gun to go off, the further out my shot would potentially be. Since I only shoot one gun, I'll pick a fast lock time." Eric

Eric, I agree, for as long as I've been shooting, the quicker the bullet gets out of the barrel, the better chance for big scores a position shooter has standing, kneeling or "sitting" which we used to do in four position....at least this is what I've always been taught and believed.......

My friend, I'm a funny guy.......I've been running a bunch of tests the past few weeks.......I've discovered some extremely interesting things about ignition......and I'm beginning to believe that lock time, within reason, is not the asset I've always been taught it is.......even for a position shooter, standing.

Does this go against the grain of universal thinking, of course it does......but to advance accuracy sometimes takes a dreamer willing to look in places that most folks would be embarrassed to admit they looked..........

Well my friend Eric, I've been looking in one of those places that goes against the "Holy Grail" of position shooting accuracy, ie.,"the benefits of fast lock time"..............I believe I've removed some of the vale, from that "Holy Grail".

I appreciate your excellent comments.

Your friend, Bill Calfee
 
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