food for thought

T

TSI243

New member
Not wanting to highjack the tread below about how to straighten out a chamber, I thought I'd start a new tread ;

One minute of angle is 1" roughly, at 100 yards, there are 60 minutes to 1 degree --- so if the bore is pointed only 1 degree off of true center the impact would move 60" or 5 feet at 100 yards.--- I have never seen a barrel even remotely close to being this crooked!!!

After cutting off the big end of a barrel blank to whatever length I will need, I chamber by indicating in at two places (the throat and the base of the case), at the breach end of the barrel, letting the muzzle swing to where ever it wants.

I can not think of a single barrel that was as much as 10" off of POI when installed -- most are only 1-2 inches off of wherever the old barrel was pointing --- I use Bartlein barrels exclusively -- and they are generally pretty straight --- I have had extremely straight barrels shoot extremely well --- like hall of fame good!!! --- give me a straight barrel every time!!! -- Crooked barrels will also shoot, but I find that the percentage of crooked barrels that shoot well is less than for straight barrels --

lets consider what crooked really means ??? a barrel that has .020 runout or more over it's entire length is a very crooked barrel in my opinion.-- Straight barrels will runout about .005 or less over their entire length -- this is the amount of muzzle swing I get when the barrel is indicated in at two places at the chamber end. The bore may wander some inside the blank, but I have no way to measure this except to look thru the barrel while it's running in the lathe --- and for the most part Bartlein barrels appear to be very straight!!

I do not believe that as much as 20- 30 MOA will make a rats ass difference in how a rifle recoils or how much a barrel whips. I also do not believe that any barrel will whip as much as 1/4 inch as somebody in the previous post indicated ---if it did it would be permanently bent --- they do move that much --- but it's because the entire rifle is moving -- not barrel whip ---

I find that people can make themselves believe whatever they think they want to see. Over the years I've done a lot of experimenting with clocking of barrels and pointing barrels by bedding actions at slight angles into stocks. In MY opinion clocking a barrel to correct for barrel internal runout is a colossal waste of time -- barrels are simply not crooked enough to make it matter at all if a barrel is pointing 10 MOA( that's a lot) up, sideways, or down -- t's simply not enough angle to make any difference --How a gun recoils, rides the bags, tracks and shoots depends entirely on the stock design, and how the action is bedded into that stock. but now were talking in degrees not a few minutes of a degree!! after you have an angle built into your action/stock bedding, any internal barrel bore wanderings will make no difference in how the rifle recoils or shoots.

I bed my rifles so that the barrel points up slightly and any amount of internal crookedness in a barrel will not be enough to eliminate the amount of up that I bed into my rifles. OH and BTW Scoville and Scarborough also bed so that the barrel points slightly up.

That's all I've got for now

later
Gene Bukys
 
I could not agree more!!!!!! Ive told my old buddy Boyd Allen several times that clock position on a barrel makes no difference what so ever. I have proven this time and time again on my home range. I clock all my customers barrels at 12 or 6, just because, but I never clock my own. Never!! I also giggle when someone claims they can feel .006 run out under recoil. Really!!
I indicate the throat and then again just in front of the throat, but that's the only difference for me. I bore everything out behind the throat, so the first 3 or so inches should be running true.
I say all this Not just because this is Gene Buckys one of the best benchrest shooter of all time. I say this because I truly agree. I truly truly do!!! Actually with all the respect I have for the people here, I usually keep this same opinion to myself. I don't like rocking the boat much, and I know how strongly people here feel about there beliefs. I couldn't be any happier that someone like Gene feels the same as I do. Thanks for sharing Gene, I appreciate it very much. Lee
 
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Gene

Thanks for sharing your results of some of your test .

How much do you raise the front of action/barrel when you bed it into a stock ?

Thanks

Hal
 
Bedding at an angle

Hi Gene, Could you elaborate on your bedding procedure, or perhaps point me to more information on the subject? This is the first I've heard of doing such a thing and I'd like to consider the merits as well as the procedure. Thanks in advance for anything you'd be willing to share.

- Some other Gene
 
I'm curious how many have verified what is TDC with a receiver hanging on a barrel held between two chucks is the same TDC while the barrel is hanging from the receiver in the real world.

Be pretty easy to check. Thread your barrel and mark the muzzle TDC. Now internal single point thread some bar stock to match your tenon threads. Without removing it from the chuck, thread your barrel into it. Put your gauge pin in the muzzle with a DTI riding on it and rotate the chuck. Does your TDC mark line up with gravity now acting on 2+ feet of barrel as it did when it was supported at each end?
 
As to crooked barrels, I have looked at some spinning in a lathe that looked like the old 2-girl jump rope. These all were zeroed at the chamber neck and muzzle. Over the years I have chambered, for myself, usually 4-6 barrels each season. One year Hart, one year Spencer, one year 5-groove Spencer, One year Shilen, several years Krieger and Bartleins, several Douglases for hunting and a couple of Brux . The most crooked bore I ever viewed, I cut it in two at what looked like the deepest part of the curve. The bore at that point was out with the OD 0.013". So????

Its still barrels, bullets and paying attention to conditions.


.
 
Rubicon Prec. said:
I'm curious how many have verified what is TDC with a receiver hanging on a barrel held between two chucks is the same TDC while the barrel is hanging from the receiver in the real world.

Be pretty easy to check. Thread your barrel and mark the muzzle TDC. Now internal single point thread some bar stock to match your tenon threads. Without removing it from the chuck, thread your barrel into it. Put your gauge pin in the muzzle with a DTI riding on it and rotate the chuck. Does your TDC mark line up with gravity now acting on 2+ feet of barrel as it did when it was supported at each end?
Click to expand...

yes, gravity effect is small, .0005-.002 in extreme (read tuner/bloop tube/thin barrels) cases

IME
 
Gents,

The first I ever heard of bedding the barreled action with a slight upward orientation was in an article about Speedy Gonzales. His rationale, IIRC, was that he wanted the rifle recoiling down and into the rear bag, rather than sliding straight back and possibly hopping about, and the upwards angle of the barreled action would produce this downward movement. This would seem to me to eliminate some variables. You're ensuring it is going to go one way, every time.

Mr. Bukys: Is this your rationale, also?

Justin
 
Think this is what Gene is referring too.

When I first put my 30BR HV together, one of the first things I noticed was the butt stock tended to jump out of the rear bag on occasion. I attributed this to the added recoil, as I free shoot my 30 just like I do my 6PPC LV. Both are built on Robertson stocks.

But I suspected something else was amiss.

I finally got the idea, (probably from Gene), to unbed the barreled action and Point it upward a tad in the stock. I rebedded and reglued it, problem solved.

In the picture, you can get an idea how much I have the barred action pointed upward in relation to the original action horizontal line.
http://benchrest.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=18076&stc=1&d=1469572592
 

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jackie schmidt said:
Think this is what Gene is referring too.

When I first put my 30BR HV together, one of the first things I noticed was the butt stock tended to jump out of the rear bag on occasion. I attributed this to the added recoil, as I free shoot my 30 just like I do my 6PPC LV. Both are built on Robertson stocks.

But I suspected something else was amiss.

I finally got the idea, (probably from Gene), to unbend the barreled action and Point it upward a tad in the stock. I rebedded and reglued it, problem solved.

In the picture, you can get an idea how much I have the barred action pointed upward in relation to the original action horizontal line.
http://benchrest.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=18076&stc=1&d=1469572592
Click to expand...

Thank you Jackie! That's very helpful.

GsT
 
One thing to remember is that when pointing a barrel upward, it will change the bottom angle relationship of the bore to the butt stock. You can see this angle and how it's figured by looking at the diagram in the NBRSA rule book. However, that's a rule I've never seen checked or enforced. Just another example of rules that need to be removed from the rule book.
 
Mike Bryant said:
One thing to remember is that when pointing a barrel upward, it will change the bottom angle relationship of the bore to the butt stock. You can see this angle and how it's figured by looking at the diagram in the NBRSA rule book. However, that's a rule I've never seen checked or enforced. Just another example of rules that need to be removed from the rule book.
Click to expand...

Yep! Some stocks push the rule to the point you have to be careful to not violate this rule with angling the action and bedding in the stock, just a small amount. Good point Mike!
 
Or.....That

Mike Bryant said:
One thing to remember is that when pointing a barrel upward, it will change the bottom angle relationship of the bore to the butt stock. You can see this angle and how it's figured by looking at the diagram in the NBRSA rule book. However, that's a rule I've never seen checked or enforced. Just another example of rules that need to be removed from the rule book.
Click to expand...

need to be enforced!
IMHO
David
 
Not arguing with the method or the result, but the barrel never points any differently because of a difference in stock installation angle. In every case, it points at the target. What changes are the toe and forend angles to the bore, and although the former is almost never checked , if the stock is already at minimum, a change has the possibility of taking it over the line. Recently I improved the performance of an old benchrest stock that showed an intermittent tendency to pop up out of the rear bag ears (judging by the targets, after the bullets had left the bore), by changing the angle of the bag contact area of the forend, making it closer to parallel to the bore.
 
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David Halblom said:
need to be enforced!
IMHO
David
Click to expand...

True, but would be very hard to enforce. I tried last year to get the 1/4" defection rule removed from the sandbag, but the directors voted it down. Very hard to enforce especially by referees who are shooters who are just asked to be referees at a match. I'd love to see a simplification of the rule book to where people didn't run the risk of getting disqualified for some innocent equipment violation. I can still hear Harold Broughtons raspy voice making the statement that " By ___, I've never been beat by a sandbag!" Dont see any need to change any of the safety rules as they work very well, but more along the lines of equipment restrictions. Too many rules in it resulting from one or two incidents that happened years ago. I like the way the Sporter class rules have been changed. Gives those who'd like to innovate the freedom to do so and those of us that just want to shoot the option of sticking with what we have and shooting it. But, if it comes down to it, no changes on any of it are fine with me. All I want to do is shoot and compete.
 
The only thing I have ever seen enforced at a Match is the width of the forearm, and the weight of the Rifle. Those are two things that are relative easy to check.

I suppose that if a shooter shoots a Agg that is good enough to be submitted for a record, clubs should be prepared to check the entire Rifle. But I have had targets submitted, and all they did was weigh the Rifle.

By the way, , as best I can measure, my HV is still within the parameters of that diagram in the Rule Book. With a Robertson Stock, you have to angle the barreled action up,quite a bit too tender the Rifle non compliant.
 
The rifle either shoots well or it doesn't. I watched my buddy Mark Luksic shoot a group and expected it to be quite large because of the erratic movement of the stock. Turns out it was a low "one" and small group for the agg.

Yes, I agree that there is a "best" method but there's always a few exceptions. Further, I don't know at all what that best method is but you gotta listen to those that shoot pretty good on a regular basis.

As for the rules....I set out once to enforce "all" the rules and failed. Seems that I was the only one at the time interested in that. It takes everyone involved and it appears that ain't gonna happen.
 
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