Flyer's at 1000yrd match

S

steveinflag

New member
I went to my first 1000yrd benchrest match and had occasional vertical flyer's.

Can you pro's give a list of causes ?

What you would look at first ?

Here's how I've loaded.

Weight sorted 6x47lapua brass,turned necks,trimmed,sinclair Hoen tool on flash holes,Bearing surface seperated 115 DTAC's,Ladder tested load and found accuracy with bullet length.Load shoots in mid 2's consistently.
 
even though the bullets land in the 2's at 100 what is the deviation of FPS at muzzle? alot changes from 100 to 1000.
 
+1 on the wind... some ranges have some nasty vertical components to their wind, depending on which way it's going, how long you take to shoot your string, etc. It's a source of no small amount of frustration, trust me, to go from shooting essentially 'waterline' groups at one range one weekend (1/2-3/4 moa vert), and the next weekend be slinging shots up and down 1.5-2 moa at another. My only consolation: so was most everybody else ;)
 
wind,mirage,heat coming off barell,up drafts,and light changes.mirage is often overlooked and misunderstud.if your loading process is top notch look at all the above.make shore you always use a heat sheild on your barell.never shoot in a boil and watch the angle of the mirage.good luck
 
I second fireball fred.You didnt say if you had shot this over a chronograph and what the extreme spread was.That will not show up at 100 but it sure will at 1000.
 
Loads absolutely must be weighed.

Cloud-sun-cloud can do this.

Probably mostly wind though IMO

al
 
Ok you got me.

Fireball, What is acceptable ES and STD ?
milanuk,How much do you compensate for a 10 mph wind in your face vs at your back ?
6.5 fan,What happens when you shoot in a boil ?
alinwa,Do you mean weigh the loaded round ?

Thanks for reply's
 
Oh, you mean weigh the powder for each round.Thanks AL
I forgot to mention that a guy named Greer with 300wsm shot a new club record for light gun.Five into 2 1/4 and all 15 into around 4 inch at Tuscon in first relay wind was still.I was wishin I'd been in first relay.
 
SteveinFlag,
These flyers can be anything. They can be any of the already good advice that has already been said, and many things that haven't been mentioned also.
But here is something all new shooters should pay attention to to help themselves when shooting in matches. One advantage of shooting in a match is that you get to compare your target against all the other targets to your left and right who shot in the same relay and the same time (approximately). This isn't exact science but it shows trends to be able to rule out certains things.
Observing your fellow relay shooters targets after they are scored is a very valuable tool and something you always need to keep an eye on. I have never been turned down when I request to look at someone elses target when doing this. Compare your target and the shape of your group to other targets in the relay. Especially other known accomplished shooters at your home club. Ask them about the conditions and what they saw and what they expected from that relay's conditions. If all targets in the relay came back with vertical and yours has twice as much vertical... that tells you the conditions caused 1/2 of your vertical. You have to figure out the other half in your gun handling and load workup.
Also, I always take note of when I get done shooting and look up and down the line to see who else finished firing about the same time I did. Take note and ask to see their target when you get them back from the scoring shed.
If your target is all up/down and everyone else had the good old 4 and 1 grouping and their flyers when left and right.... means you have gun handling/load issues and everyone else simply missed the condition for one shot. That is just another example of how to compare and evaluate your targets.
But if your target comes back with shots all over the place and you knew there were 2 or 3 other known accomplished shooters in your relay and they fired 10" + with scores in the mid to low 80s... then you chalk that relay up to bad conditions and simply shoot the same load again (hopefully in better conditions).

As a general rule... never underestimate the wind! I have seen guys make load changes to a known good load when one or 2 shots simply got caught in the wind on one target. Then when the next relay or match rolls around and there is good conditions their load is "off" a little bit and they don't shoot good again. Then they keep changing it again getting further and further from thier "base" load. I've done it myself. So I guess what I'm saying is to not hit the panic button yet and simply make small changes until you learn the characteristics or your load and rifle.
Checking your up/down and velocity variations on a chrono at short range can help, but I have also had those numbers lie to me in certain chamberings. Test your "in the 2's" load at 200 to 300yds in good conditions before the next match. If you still aren't seeing vertical in your grouping at that range... don't change anything and simply say to yourself, "yep the wind got me last time". It won't be the last time you ever say it. Then go back to the next match and watch and talk to the good shooters there and how they shoot.

I will warn you though after shooting this game for many years... a lot of guys (even accomplished shooters with State and National titles to their name) will tell you to simply shoot fast. Well shooting fast will bring your groups down. That isn't a question. But then you will only be able to shoot down to a certain size group and anything you do will not improve your rifles agging capability. Remember there is no such thing as a free lunch. Meaning shooting fast will improve your groups but only so much. And I think a lot of shooters overlook this for the short term benefit of instant smaller groups at the expense of not being able to let rifle reach its true agging capability. Read in simple terms... shooting fast isn't the end all solve all of 1000yd BR shooting. Just shoot faster than before and be smooth is the best advice I can give you for now until you learn your own rifle and load and what it's capable of.

Never underestimate the wind and only compare your target against your relay. Comparing your target to a shoot in the relay before or after your even if the conditions "looked" the same to you can be a dangerous proposition also.

Good luck next time you go to a match and let us know how you made out.

Steve
 
Thanks Steve Shelp and Charles E,

I guess I'll shoot over the chrono at 200yrd on a calm day and try that vaughn test.

The ladder test was to find a load that shot the closest verticle at different temperatures.I think it has barrel vibe timing included.At 300yrds you shoot from max pressure down in 2/10th grain increments until you find three shots closest then repeat to confirm a pattern.Then try those three powder charges with different bullet seating depths to find tightest group.
 
Had to stop so I would'nt time out and have to start over.

Still had some unanswered questions.Do you inspect meplats,trim or don't worry about it ? How much does meplat affect BC ?

Had you had success weighing bullets,sorting by bearing surface or not worth the hassle.Or all combined is there a significant difference at 1000yrds.

What would acceptable SD,ES,be for 6x47L 115dtac at 3100fps be ?

Thanks for all you help guys,

I did a little better than most of the guys in my relay but they were having worse luck than me.One guy had bullets that were blowing up.Another guy was trying to find out if his friends gun was messed up or not,it was.The guy I went with had light gun problems,barrel not up to par.


Steve
 
steveinflag said:
Thanks Steve Shelp and Charles E,

I guess I'll shoot over the chrono at 200yrd on a calm day and try that vaughn test.

The ladder test was to find a load that shot the closest verticle at different temperatures.I think it has barrel vibe timing included.At 300yrds you shoot from max pressure down in 2/10th grain increments until you find three shots closest then repeat to confirm a pattern.Then try those three powder charges with different bullet seating depths to find tightest group.
Click to expand...

this is backwards.
how do you know what max pressure is in YOUR RIFLE, with your BULLET, your lot of POWDER, your fireformed BRASS ?
TRY STARTING WITH A KNOWN/PUBLISHED MID RANGE LOAD AND WORK YOUR WAY UP. in my limited experience(almost 40 yrs) rifle loads tend to perfom best with high density loads. STOP WHEN YOU ARE NO LONGER COMFORTABLE WITH YOUR LOADS.
published load data is a guide, not a law.
no i'm not condoning foolish over charges, but rather developing DATA for YOUR rifle as it is not likley you are shooting the same rifle that was used in the publishers load development.

mike in co
 
Charles E said:
P.S. to Mike in Colorado -- it isn't uncommon in benchrest (with a strong, custom bolt-action rifle, tight benchrest chamber, brass, etc. etc. on all the caveats and warnings) to quickly find a max load by shooting until either (1) the rifle scatters shots, or (2) the bolt gets hard to open. Back off "a bit" from there -- depends on case volume. As for me, I do work down from maximum loads, as determined by (1) and (2) above.

FWIW
Click to expand...


yeah...but he did not say that. you went up and then back down. he said he started with max and worked down. i would certainly consider finding max pressure(?)....well where the gun quit shooting and i did not feel safe, as part of my load development.

oh well
 
Since it was your first match your nerves probably got to ya, my first year shooting I always had the first two shots fly, I was a nervous mess. if they fly at 6/12 o'clock you are having bag/recoil issues. This can be a hard one to correct. if there going some wheres else its probably the wind or a combination of both. Before you go out and shoot alot of rounds, was the main group smaller or similar in size to what won the relay, if it was your guns probably shooting just fine.

I believe that trimming meplates will take a gun that shoot nice round groups and make it a run that shoots nice round clusters. Trimming meplates will allow you to measure and make a completely consistent bullet. but you have to measure everything. Taking anything more than .005" takes too much B.C. off
 
Charles E

On the meplat and bearing surface testing I think you get e-mails from Henry Childs with his results and testing methods clearly stated in them?
Lynn
 
Mike in Co,

I did start with a low powder charge and work up to find max pressure.Stopping at sticky bolt.Sorry, should have explained clearly so new loaders would not get confused.I was trying to be brief.

Charles,

Being benchrest, I was hoping to find what out what I could do to tighten groups.Tubb had said that non uniform meplats cause slightly different BC resulting in flyers.Thats why he came out with polymer tips for more uniform BC and meplat trimmer.
 
Steveinflag

Steve if you do a search of the 1,000 yard forum you will see a post by Dave Tooley that says he would never shoot 600 or 1,000 yards without trimming his meplats.
If you see a -.020 difference in the bc number and that makes a large vertical difference at 1,000 yards as was stated earlier uniforming those same bullets should reduce that variance and thus the groups potential size.
If I had a rifles that shot 2's at 100 yards with 200 gr Sierras and a buddy gave me 200 of the same bullets but 100 had trimmed meplats uniform weight and measured the same in all aspects I would choose that 100 over the group that had 0.020 bc variation,untrimmed meplats and a half grains worth of weight difference.
Lynn
 
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