Flat base vs. boat tail

S

Silcom45

Guest
I shoot a .222 with a 36x scope for personal enjoyment; haven't competed yet. I prepare my brass and weigh my charges. My ammo seems to be fairly accurate if I do my part. I've read that some shooters use flat base bullets and others use a boat tail. Can someone in the group tell me which type most of you guys use and why that design is prefered?
 
Probably six of one or half dozen of the other. Try both. Watch your group sizes. your barrel will tell you which one IT likes.:)
 
Silcom

These things come and go. A particular bullet maker will score a great die, some really good jackets, and shooters will soon jump on the bandwagon. And for good reason. We all understand that there are good bullets, and great bullets. We all want to get our hands on a bunch of the great ones.

At this moment, the hottest bullet in 100-200 yard Benchrest just happens to be a boat tail. It is the 68 grn Hottenstien. These guys really know how to make a great bullet, and their Die is obviously a cut above. Combine their skill. and that die, and it is the thing of which legends are made.

But, in years past, we have seen this senario played out many times. Just about every every well known bullet maker has shared that same spotlight at one time or another.

For 100 and 200 yard Benchrest, any ballistic advantage that one design has over the other probably doen't even come into play. The only thing that counts is the quality of the jackets, the die, and of course, the skill of the bullet maker. Whether they be Flat Base or Boat Tail, if you score some really good bullets, your "duece" will like them.

Give Ronnie Cheeks a call. He has a great 22 caliber die..........jackie
 
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fb vs bt

Boattail bullets are of military origin. The rebate allows for less turbulance behind the bullet and thus a more stable flight, atleast on paper. As has been pointed out over and over this does not always mean smaller groups even at long range.
BIB makes a 155gr 30cal FB (most people who shoot them won't admit it) which has won a number of Palma and F class events ( yes 1,000 yards). I recently shot my 30br at 500yds with 118gr FB just to see what it would do and was very surprised, though I screwed up on the wind.
Dies and concentrancy ( especially within the jacket) appear to have alot more to do with it, again this has been pointed out over and over.
 
Flat base vs boat tail

Iv'e been told many times over that the boat tail kicks in over 300 yds
I have also been told by some reliable bullet makers of the past that you need an exceptional barrel to shoot boat tail bullets.
Anyone want to reflect on this one.?
I know Lowells bullets are shooting up a storm .... But
Maybe it's more to do with bullet making procedures.
 
Iv'e been told many times over that the boat tail kicks in over 300 yds
I have also been told by some reliable bullet makers of the past that you need an exceptional barrel to shoot boat tail bullets.
Anyone want to reflect on this one.?
I know Lowells bullets are shooting up a storm .... But
Maybe it's more to do with bullet making procedures.
Jackie really nailed it, but . . .

Some fairly serious people have repeated the "boattails for over 300 yards" business. To the extent it is true, it is a gross exaggeration. (For example, how often do you see a bullet with a 6.5-degree tangent ogive and a boattail? It probably happens, but not often.)

There are current 100-200-300 yard benchrest records held by shooters using boattail bullets.

There are current 1,000 yard benchrest records held by shooters using flatbase bullets.

As Jackie said, a good bullet maker who has an exceptional set of dies and jackets will make make the best bullets. Further, again as Jackie said, some barrels prefer one type, some another -- as with the ogive number and shape.

We seem to have a hard time banishing old wives tales.
 
New Wives Tale;
Boat tails drift less in the wind,especially tornadic,unpredictable,snotty,slappin,`10-30mph head or tail winds! Boat tails driven hard and fast drift even less.This becomes noticeable at 200yds and evident at 300yds,beyond that(out to 700yds or so) I don't have any competitive experience, just woodchuck shootin', where spitzer boat tails out-perform flat base hollow point bullets in all regards ; sustained velocity,trajectory,wind drift and terminal performance.
In calm pristine conditions or light, steady winds ( on paper at 100-200-&300yds) flat base,low # ogive bullets at medium to low velocities are sweet as can be,easy to tune and accurate beyond words(lot's a screamers) .Todays competitive shooter will have three or four different bullets as well as three or four different powders in his arsenal,and will be willing and able to shift gears at the drop of a hat,or a change in the weather.
 
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I've read that some shooters use flat base bullets and others use a boat tail. Can someone in the group tell me which type most of you guys use and why that design is prefered?

With the 6PPC I shoot BT bullets and I like the consistent seating pressure and found them to shoot equal to the FB from the same maker, as long as other things were equal.
With the 257TED I shoot FB bullets because the very best 25 cal bullets I have been able to find are made in the FB configuration by the guy who makes them.
I have lost matches with both FB and BT and taken some wood with both types.
Right now there seems to be plenty of good BT bullets around. But about 5 or 6 years ago most of the good bullets I was able to get ahold of were FB.
Ted
 
Flat base vs boat tail

So far it's 1 and 1 and 1 tie .
Any more?
Have a favorite twist bullet shape combination to go with that?
 
I shoot BT's in guns from 100 yards to over 2000 yards. At the longer ranges, the BT's are king. Period. Higher retained velocities, less wind drift, higher impact energies, less drop. That being said, at intermediate ranges (600-800 yards) I've seen some flat base bullets do remarkably well. But if the barrel likes a BT at those ranges, I'd still pick it over the FB any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

As for close range (100-300 NBRSA group competition), I shoot BT simply because they seat easier, usually will shoot fantastic with a little less powder, and they seem to like a little jump to the rifling which is nice when the RO calls a "cease fire and remove bolts immediately" command, I can pull out my round and the bullet won't be stuck in the barrel. But the BT's on short range 6mm bullets aren't really anything like a TRUE BT on a long range bullet. They are very,very short and I haven't been able to tell any difference in them and the FB bullets in wind drift out to 200 yards. My ballistic coefficient testing of them shows a slightly higher bc on the BT bullet but not really enough for me to notice in real world conditions.
 
I shoot BT's in guns from 100 yards to over 2000 yards. At the longer ranges, the BT's are king. Period. . . .

Several things First, it depends on the type of shooting you are doing. Target (benchrest competition) shooting is done at a known distance. Drop is not a factor. Wind is, but less than you might think. If bullets with a ballistic coefficient (calculated) of around .550 or so were at such a disadvantage, the 6mms wouldn't do any winning at 1K.

There are (competition) flatbase bullets that have a ballistic coefficient in that region. In fact, the NBSA single group (HG 10 shot) records is held by a shooter who used a flatbase bullet, as is the IBS 10-shot group record, and several Australian records. There is a fair bit of real-world competitive data to back up the performance of FB bullets at 1,000 yards.

Secondly, if you look more closely into bullet design, the pointy end (e.g., meplat diameter, ogive shape & number) has more to do with lowering drag than the back end (boat tail)

Having said that, there are no trophies for shooting a bullet with the highest BC or highest velocity.
 
Several things First, it depends on the type of shooting you are doing. Target (benchrest competition) shooting is done at a known distance. Drop is not a factor. Wind is, but less than you might think. If bullets with a ballistic coefficient (calculated) of around .550 or so were at such a disadvantage, the 6mms wouldn't do any winning at 1K.

There are (competition) flatbase bullets that have a ballistic coefficient in that region. In fact, the NBSA single group (HG 10 shot) records is held by a shooter who used a flatbase bullet, as is the IBS 10-shot group record, and several Australian records. There is a fair bit of real-world competitive data to back up the performance of FB bullets at 1,000 yards.

Secondly, if you look more closely into bullet design, the pointy end (e.g., meplat diameter, ogive shape & number) has more to do with lowering drag than the back end (boat tail)

Having said that, there are no trophies for shooting a bullet with the highest BC or highest velocity.



Charles,

You say that wind is less a factor than one might think then you turn around and make an argument for ballistic coefficients? If wind was a minor factor in grouping capability, why the need to pay attention to bc? I've never heard a long range shooter say that wind was not the achilles heel of long range trajectories. Makes me wonder if you actually shoot at these distances?:confused:

Secondly, you introduced the bc number of 550 and made it sound like it was a fairly low bc (at least that's how I read it) when in fact, a .550 bc is a fairly high bc. Supersonic velocities are needed for consistent 1000 yard accuracy and a bc of .550 is very sufficient enough even at low muzzle velocites to be supersonic at 1k. In truth, a bc of .400 launched quick enough will do the job. However, if you have a bc in the .6 range or .7, it's all the better.;)

That being said, yes there are a FEW FB bullets with bc's NEAR .550. Bib's .30 cal comes in at .520. But these are specialty bullets and they are stretched to get in the .5 range. A BT with the same weight can easily attain .55 and even higher and are much more prevalent.

And yes, I know about long range 6mm capabilities. I have two myself and was shooting one of them past 1000 yards when those bullets were still considered "too small" by the majority of the shooting public.;) I love 'em!


If you read my post, I said that I had seen FB bullets do remarkably well at intermediate ranges 600-800 yards. I did not say they couldn't perform well at 1000. I simply have not witnessed it myself yet.

Yes, there are a few records with FB bullets at long range. But the vast majority of records are held with BT's.;)


And I merely pointed out the short range bt bullets in the way I did to mean that they really aren't a whole lot different than FB in these configurations for real world shooting. They have short BT's and if all else is equal, it's not enough to significantly raise the bc to a point where it would show a dramatic improvement in the drift category.


Finally, no they don't award trophies to guys shooting the highest bc bullets just because of their bullet choice. But every tool we can use to help overcome the elements will get us that much closer to the wood! You don't see too many 1k shooters using bullets with .3 or .4 bullets and there is a reason for that!
 
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What will screw a group fast? A bad base on a bullet. Flat base bullets have a higher chance of having a bad base than boat tail bullets. All the rest is just for the rag chewing. The fact that a bad base on a bullet is the biggest single cause of bad bullet performance has been known for more than a hundred years, should not go without consideration.
 
What will screw a group fast? A bad base on a bullet. Flat base bullets have a higher chance of having a bad base than boat tail bullets. All the rest is just for the rag chewing. The fact that a bad base on a bullet is the biggest single cause of bad bullet performance has been known for more than a hundred years, should not go without consideration.

Why would that be? A boattail bullet base has more sq. centimeters of area than a flat base of equal caliber. It would seem to me that the more area involved, the greater the chance of a problem.
Mark
 
222 pills - Watson 52's

Call Bart Sauter. Get him to send you some 52gn Watsons he makes. My gun loves them when combined with a big dose of Benchmark. Plenty of 2's and 3's shot at 200 in BR competitions with it. You won't be disappointed.
Peter
 
The way this subject was explained to me is as follows:

1- What happens at the front of the bullet is a lot more important than what happens at the rear.

2- Boat tailed bullets are less stable than FBs at close range because the turbulence created at the muzzle by gasses escaping past the bullet is higher, due to the design. (This was ages ago before people were regularly jam seating.) Beyond 300 yards, the boat tailed bullet is better than a flat based bullet for accuracy.


3- Rebated boat tails like the ones offered in ammunition for some of the Barret rifles, and in bullets offered by Don Lahr, and touted by Corbin for years, offer the best of both worlds.


My own experience has been that #1 has always been right no matter the caliber or application. #2 seems to be right in all the 5.56 or .223 rem rifles I have shot. #2 does not seem to signify in 6mm or 6.5mm rifles I have shot. The .308 bullets I have shot seem to follow the #2 rule, definitely in 30BR.

Why? I dunno, except maybe the "leakage" in the .224" and .308" bullets is a more significant % due to mass/caliber? I'd like to get some rebated boat tails from Don to play with, but I am now stuck shooting at 200 yards or less, probably forever, unless I win the lottery and can afford a chauffeur to drive me to the longer ranges. Oh well...........
 
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