Now that i have shot on my new range a few times it is becoming fairly clear that i need to pick a new style of wind flag. I am shooting out across an open corn field into a dirt berm and the winds are very tricky. What i am experiencing are very small let ups and pushes. These let ups and pushes can go from 10mph to 8mph or up to 12mph and i am just not seeing this with my graham flags with surveyors ribbon on my tails. Everything always looks the same even though it clearly isn't on the paper. I am not sure if daisy wheels are the answer or maybe some sail tails, or maybe both? I am just not sure. The winds on my range are quite different from anything i have experienced in a match and i love my graham flags everywhere except for here at home. Any thoughts on how i can start seeing these changes? Lee
Flag choice??
- Thread starter skeetlee
- Start date
J
j mckinnie
Guest
mirage boards
or watch the angle of wind direction
or watch the angle of wind direction
Boyd Allen
Active member
Surveyors' tape starts to loose its usefulness as wind speeds increase. You may need to try something heavier. My Hood flags came equipped with relatively heavy, red cloth ribbons, which were eventually replaced wit surveyors' tape, because of the lightness of the conditions that I usually shoot in. In windier conditions, Skip Otto had two tails on each flag. The heavier one hung from the bottom of the vane forward of the back corner, and was made from the heaviest black, crochet or knitting yarn that he could find, perhaps a half a dozen strands that were all knotted together every six inches or so. The lighter ribbon was attached behind it to the back lower corner of the vane. Because the heavier one was in front, they did not tangle, as the lighter one maxed out, the heavier one would have picked up. It has been a long time, so if I have any of the details wrong, someone jump in and correct me. I am not a fan of daisy wheels, but I still see them in pictures of matches that are held back east, some someone must be. IMO they reduce responsiveness to wind angle change during light conditions. Perhaps the reason for the regional difference in their use is because of the differences in typical conditions. I have a half dozen for my Hoods sitting on the shelf, fitted with brass tubing bushings to improve their fit, with one blade painted black. The other problem that they have is that if they are too well balanced and have little friction, they do not stop rotating when the wind does, and when the wind is doing fast changes may confuse things because of this. The best way that I know to compare flags, or components, is to put them both out, so that neither is in the other's wind shadow and watch them to see which one looks like it is picking up first with a change, and how much information is available about speed and direction. One more thing, for tails that may want to spin, ball bearing snap swivels, that you can usually find at a fishing tackle store, make an easy to use method of attachment to vanes. They are not needed for surveyors tape, but are handy for heavier tails that may want to spin, and in doing so bind up at their point of attachment.
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caroby
Guest
surveyors ribbon on my tails
Your good... Simple single 1" ribbon is the way to go... IT REACTS to all condition change FIRST..!
Years ago, I tried Sail Tails............. Nope... Does not REACT to ALL the slight changes... Kinda hangs there say'n "shoot"...
Ha...Errrr..!. I see MOST tails in competition by far .. Simple surveyor ribbon, 1" single strand.
MORE PRACTICE Lee...! Remember check your tune with a couple shots on sighter..FAST.. If a hole or cut in half, your tune is more than likely right...
Your Graham flags arn't the problem more than likely... Set'em up and spend time watch'n them... There is a good chance you have a range that causes tough swirls.. Hard to both react to and SEE accuratly from shot to shot....Question..?>> Got good vision..? My new contact prescription has HELPED ME BIG TIME..! 2011 has been my best year ever... I can >SEE< man..!
Good luck Lee, more range time Mr.!
cale
Your good... Simple single 1" ribbon is the way to go... IT REACTS to all condition change FIRST..!
Years ago, I tried Sail Tails............. Nope... Does not REACT to ALL the slight changes... Kinda hangs there say'n "shoot"...
Ha...Errrr..!. I see MOST tails in competition by far .. Simple surveyor ribbon, 1" single strand.
MORE PRACTICE Lee...! Remember check your tune with a couple shots on sighter..FAST.. If a hole or cut in half, your tune is more than likely right...
Your Graham flags arn't the problem more than likely... Set'em up and spend time watch'n them... There is a good chance you have a range that causes tough swirls.. Hard to both react to and SEE accuratly from shot to shot....Question..?>> Got good vision..? My new contact prescription has HELPED ME BIG TIME..! 2011 has been my best year ever... I can >SEE< man..!
Good luck Lee, more range time Mr.!
cale
Apollo
Jason Stanley
Just a thing you can try, before you spend a lot of money. Set you flags as normal. Then walk the range slowly and "feel" the wind on your arms,face, legs etc. Once you feel the wind - check to see if you have a flag nearby. If not - you should put a flag there.
Another thing you could do - If you have many flags, put them out at 100 - and watch them...they will tell you where you need to put them on your range. Not that you will shoot with this many flags, they will just tell you where your swirls and changes are.
Not all ranges are the same, so therefore the placements of the flags will change.
Your range might just be a tough range to shoot at.
Stanley
Another thing you could do - If you have many flags, put them out at 100 - and watch them...they will tell you where you need to put them on your range. Not that you will shoot with this many flags, they will just tell you where your swirls and changes are.
Not all ranges are the same, so therefore the placements of the flags will change.
Your range might just be a tough range to shoot at.
Stanley
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Jefferson
Guest
graham wind flags
look at the upe downe flags jefferson
look at the upe downe flags jefferson
I may be hijacking a thread, but wondered how you guys use wind probes.
Let me start off by saying I don't really have a set, just a couple homemade ones. May have a design flaw or two. Secondly, here in the SE region, we're more apt to get light, switchy winds than the 20+ mph stuff of Texas and the Midwest. That said, I *have* been known to pay attention to the wind probes on the line:
As best I can tell, they work best by telling me when NOT to shoot. When the flags may not show something and the probe does, I just don't shoot. The flip side isn't true. When the probe says zero or close to it, there may well be something going on out there that will show up on the target, and the flags, esp. a light tail, will show it.
Does that fit with the experience of you guys that rely a good bit on the probes, or am I just too inexperienced in their use?
TIA,
Charles
Let me start off by saying I don't really have a set, just a couple homemade ones. May have a design flaw or two. Secondly, here in the SE region, we're more apt to get light, switchy winds than the 20+ mph stuff of Texas and the Midwest. That said, I *have* been known to pay attention to the wind probes on the line:
As best I can tell, they work best by telling me when NOT to shoot. When the flags may not show something and the probe does, I just don't shoot. The flip side isn't true. When the probe says zero or close to it, there may well be something going on out there that will show up on the target, and the flags, esp. a light tail, will show it.
Does that fit with the experience of you guys that rely a good bit on the probes, or am I just too inexperienced in their use?
TIA,
Charles
dont get me wrong fellas. I love my graham flags. I should have made myself a little more clear. The tails and the possibility of some type of daisy is what i am referring to, not the flag itself. I just cant seem to pick up those settle changes in wind velo. 2mph seems to make quite a difference and i just dont see that in the tails i am using. The tails stick straight out at around 10mph and they are still straight out at 13mph. I hope none of you thought i was bashing the flag maker as i wouldn't ever do such a thing. thanks for the replies. Lee
Lee,
I have had the chance to have sail tails and surveyors tape side by side in my back yard and there is no difference in the velocity to tail lift quotient between them. I did have the chance to shoot over Allie Eubers probes with his daisy wheels at the VT states and he had his probes calibrated to 30mph max wind speed. I really liked having those probes especially at 200yds. Most of the time they told me when not to shoot, but that day we had some serious winds blowing and they would max out on occasion...when they went back to zero I shot (one at 100yds and one at 200yds) despite what the flags were showing me. It served me well until the very last shot of the last match.
Heavier tails may do it, but when the winds are light or switching you may regret the lag in sensitivity...those "suck outs" will leave you hanging.
My next purchase will be a set of two wind probes.
Mike
I have had the chance to have sail tails and surveyors tape side by side in my back yard and there is no difference in the velocity to tail lift quotient between them. I did have the chance to shoot over Allie Eubers probes with his daisy wheels at the VT states and he had his probes calibrated to 30mph max wind speed. I really liked having those probes especially at 200yds. Most of the time they told me when not to shoot, but that day we had some serious winds blowing and they would max out on occasion...when they went back to zero I shot (one at 100yds and one at 200yds) despite what the flags were showing me. It served me well until the very last shot of the last match.
Heavier tails may do it, but when the winds are light or switching you may regret the lag in sensitivity...those "suck outs" will leave you hanging.
My next purchase will be a set of two wind probes.
Mike
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don carter
Guest
Ok, you got my attention. How do you make them. Thanks Don
Pete Wass
Well-known member
The Australian Flags:
If I were to buy another set of flags I would buy a set of the Australian flags. A friend has a set and I have watched them. They seem to me to be the most responsive flags I have seen to date.
Having said that, I just made a set of flags that are a knock off of the Wicks single vain flags. I put Dasies on mine because I have recently started to use the Dasies as an indicator of the wind starting. I have never paid mush attention to tails.
I have had probes since they were newish and use them every time I shoot a match. I had Windicators before them and found them to be excelent as well but lacking in refinements. I am in the camp of them telling one when not to shoot but I also use them sometimes to show me when the Letoff happens. I find the probes to be a great early indicator of letups.
Actually, there are a number of wind indicators out there that seem to work well. Some of them are more visible than others; the ones Mike Rippie makes being some of the most visible out there and well made.
If I were to buy another set of flags I would buy a set of the Australian flags. A friend has a set and I have watched them. They seem to me to be the most responsive flags I have seen to date.
Having said that, I just made a set of flags that are a knock off of the Wicks single vain flags. I put Dasies on mine because I have recently started to use the Dasies as an indicator of the wind starting. I have never paid mush attention to tails.
I have had probes since they were newish and use them every time I shoot a match. I had Windicators before them and found them to be excelent as well but lacking in refinements. I am in the camp of them telling one when not to shoot but I also use them sometimes to show me when the Letoff happens. I find the probes to be a great early indicator of letups.
Actually, there are a number of wind indicators out there that seem to work well. Some of them are more visible than others; the ones Mike Rippie makes being some of the most visible out there and well made.
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Pete Wass
Well-known member
I have one but found that I wasn't able to see it along with all the other stuff I had out there. That is to say, I can't process a lot of information and that tipped the balance; all puns intended
.
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mks
Guest
Lee,
I can be hard to see changes in wind velocity with tails, because you have to be able to recognize small differences in the angle of the tail with no scale to go by. This while the wind direction is changing too. Wind probes like Hanson's or Beggs' are one answer. They give you a scale to measure the cross wind velocity, which is normally the most important component. You can calibrate the scale to particular amounts of wind deflection. For my new probes that I have shot a couple of matches with, it seems to be working out that the first mark corresponds to the bullet being pushed to the edge of the 10 ring on the IBS score target at 100 yards and to the 9 ring at 200, if all probes are showing the same velocity.
Of course, it is rare when all probes are saying the same thing, but at least you have a more quantitative estimate of the effect on the bullet from each one.
Good luck with your search for the perfect flags,
Keith
Pete Wass
Well-known member
In the Rimfire arena
some folks have incorporated the Up/down feature in some or all of their flags. I saw a set recently, made by the owner/shooter that are very interesting a very well thought out. They are as good a flag as I have ever seen. I particularly like the origionality of the design and manufactuer. The owner also has a SS one piece rest that is the prettiest thing I have ever seen. He is an unbelieveable craftsman
some folks have incorporated the Up/down feature in some or all of their flags. I saw a set recently, made by the owner/shooter that are very interesting a very well thought out. They are as good a flag as I have ever seen. I particularly like the origionality of the design and manufactuer. The owner also has a SS one piece rest that is the prettiest thing I have ever seen. He is an unbelieveable craftsman
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caroby
Guest
That being said, this is a sport of finding out what works best for you. If your mind works better with ribbon, use it. If it's wind socks, use it.
Agreed, simple and correct.. Lee, just experiment... Your blessed in having property you can test and practice.. Your fortunate, enjoy every minute..!
cale
Agreed, simple and correct.. Lee, just experiment... Your blessed in having property you can test and practice.. Your fortunate, enjoy every minute..!
cale
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TedH
Guest
I like the double vane flags like the Hood. The vertical strips on the insde make it easier for me to see the angles. Flying Fish Fundamentals also makes a double vane flag.
Butch Lambert
Active member
A commercial. Pictured below is the BRT flag. The pinwheel isn't like a daisy. A daisy takes more wind to get it moving and it is like a flywheel. It takes a while for them to slow down. The pinwheel is on double bearings and starts and stops instantly. The 3 colors of the pinwheel help you see angles. The flags are a little tail heavy to eliminate the windshield wiper effect. The pivot pins are mounted with double bearings also.
Pictured below shows how compact that they are. This is 6 flags, flag stands, level, and spikes, all in an attache case.
Are they inexpensive, no, but you don't have to replace them like barrels and other components. A one time expense. A good set of flags and the ability to read them is priceless.
Butch
Pictured below shows how compact that they are. This is 6 flags, flag stands, level, and spikes, all in an attache case.
Are they inexpensive, no, but you don't have to replace them like barrels and other components. A one time expense. A good set of flags and the ability to read them is priceless.
Butch
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twentytwoguy
Guest
If you have any adjacent berms or have cut a path through a hayfield etc. it's likely you are getting a swirling effect and that is the hardest condition to shoot by a mile and could be the reason you are getting tripped up. If your flags tend to spin around excessively or just seem to be confused showing random movements, especially when the wind seems fairly mundane otherwise, look for nearby terrain issues that could be causing this cyclonic eddy swirl motion. It can really mess with you and POI will change drastically with just slight wind direction changes. In these conditions sometimes the wind you feel on your person can be a bigger help than the flags and your face,skin and hair are very sensitive when you key in on them.
As mentioned above in conditions of very light and switchy winds a thin ribbon tail that moves the easiest will show subtleties better than anything.
Recently I shot a match and the wind was strong and switching constantly and the flags were not cooperating due to some tall berms making them do 360's but there was a condition I could feel clearly when the wind hit me square on the back of my neck and the bullets would shoot like magic in the x-ring when I felt it and I shot a killer target while everybody else struggled trying to read the flags. The felt condition didn't return for the next 2 targets and they were mediocre but I learned from some great wind readers that felt wind is a great addition to watching the flags.
As mentioned above in conditions of very light and switchy winds a thin ribbon tail that moves the easiest will show subtleties better than anything.
Recently I shot a match and the wind was strong and switching constantly and the flags were not cooperating due to some tall berms making them do 360's but there was a condition I could feel clearly when the wind hit me square on the back of my neck and the bullets would shoot like magic in the x-ring when I felt it and I shot a killer target while everybody else struggled trying to read the flags. The felt condition didn't return for the next 2 targets and they were mediocre but I learned from some great wind readers that felt wind is a great addition to watching the flags.