B
Big Al
Guest
If anyone remembers how SKIP OTTO's way to keep his rear bag ears formed? He had a cut off peice of butt stock held in the ears by rubber bands while not in use. This kept the bag in form. Not a bad idea at all.
First record shot high/low
- Thread starter bryan
- Start date
If anyone remembers how SKIP OTTO's way to keep his rear bag ears formed? He had a cut off peice of butt stock held in the ears by rubber bands while not in use. This kept the bag in form. Not a bad idea at all.
JerrySharrett
Senile Member
Charles, you are correct in thinking that score shooters have a better feel for the this solution. Rimfire and centerfire shooters make the up/down change on every row. When I shot rimfire, I took an extra shot off the target, or on the ARA?? target (the one with sighters at each row), I always shot that sighter first.
I had this problem at the Super Shoot.
My bag is multi stitch / wide in the bottom. Ears are sorta loose. I think I followed Mike's advice.
I just put it down to the tricky winds.
Gene Buckys and Joe Krupa used a new acronym that I never heard.
"The 4 in 1 club". 4 shots are good. But, 1 shot keeps the group from being a .1.
After a while, of trying to figure out, the problem. I sorta gave up. Trying to figure out the problem.
I just wanted to enjoy my first Super Shoot.
Without all of the headaches.
Some groups got smaller.
My bag is multi stitch / wide in the bottom. Ears are sorta loose. I think I followed Mike's advice.
I just put it down to the tricky winds.
Gene Buckys and Joe Krupa used a new acronym that I never heard.
"The 4 in 1 club". 4 shots are good. But, 1 shot keeps the group from being a .1.
After a while, of trying to figure out, the problem. I sorta gave up. Trying to figure out the problem.
I just wanted to enjoy my first Super Shoot.
Without all of the headaches.
Some groups got smaller.
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LARRY FEUSSE
New member
Jerry is on the right track.....
When firing on the sighter the sand in the rear bag settles and the bottom of the v of the bag will take on the same angle as that of the bottom of the stock. Then when you go to the top target the bottom of the stock is now sitting at the rearmost part of the bottom of the v in the bag and this effects the impact point of the shot. It also causes the sand in the bag to shift again so that by the second or third shot the angle of the bag and stock are the same again. This is especially the case on bags that have a long (about 3 in.) stich between the ears and bags that do not have the ears close together. Those who squeeze the bag do not have this problem as much because their stock is always supported by the forwardmost part of the bag. Those who use a bag with ears real close together (single stitch) also do not have this problem as much because their rifle will usually ride higher in the bag, not all the way down to the stitching. This is why I created what I call the " Bow Tie Bag" which has medium height ears and a real short stitch between the ears, but standard length stitching at the outside edges of the ears just like other bags. When you look down on it from the top, the ears look like the shape of a bow tie. It is available from Protector Model as a special order item. Just ask for the Larry Feusse Bow Tie Bag.
I have also found that it is best to have a softer front bag with extra sand in it. The front bag will also form a set like the rear, but not as much. Keeping it soft makes it more rounded on top and makes it conform more easily to the way the bottom of the stock contacts it. When going from one target to the other, always move the rifle back and forth in the bags a few times to get everything settled. I had to make a deliberate study of this a few years ago, because I shoot score a lot and was also having problems in group shooting. Now the problem is gone for me. But, I still have lots of other problems. The biggest of which is an incurable sickness called lackamoney.
Hope this helps.
Larry
When firing on the sighter the sand in the rear bag settles and the bottom of the v of the bag will take on the same angle as that of the bottom of the stock. Then when you go to the top target the bottom of the stock is now sitting at the rearmost part of the bottom of the v in the bag and this effects the impact point of the shot. It also causes the sand in the bag to shift again so that by the second or third shot the angle of the bag and stock are the same again. This is especially the case on bags that have a long (about 3 in.) stich between the ears and bags that do not have the ears close together. Those who squeeze the bag do not have this problem as much because their stock is always supported by the forwardmost part of the bag. Those who use a bag with ears real close together (single stitch) also do not have this problem as much because their rifle will usually ride higher in the bag, not all the way down to the stitching. This is why I created what I call the " Bow Tie Bag" which has medium height ears and a real short stitch between the ears, but standard length stitching at the outside edges of the ears just like other bags. When you look down on it from the top, the ears look like the shape of a bow tie. It is available from Protector Model as a special order item. Just ask for the Larry Feusse Bow Tie Bag.
I have also found that it is best to have a softer front bag with extra sand in it. The front bag will also form a set like the rear, but not as much. Keeping it soft makes it more rounded on top and makes it conform more easily to the way the bottom of the stock contacts it. When going from one target to the other, always move the rifle back and forth in the bags a few times to get everything settled. I had to make a deliberate study of this a few years ago, because I shoot score a lot and was also having problems in group shooting. Now the problem is gone for me. But, I still have lots of other problems. The biggest of which is an incurable sickness called lackamoney.
Hope this helps.
Larry
goodgrouper
tryingtobeabettergrouper
I too have spent countless hours trying to figure out the this sighter/record voodoo problem. My first couple of years in this sport, I had the problem big time. I tried everything to fix it. Even went so far as to shoot my first "record" shot over the target and the come DOWN to the record to shoot the next five shots. After exhausting every possible solution, I got a new front rest. The problem lessened but was still there. So then I got a new rear bag with everything different on it from my first bag. Problem went away immediately.
Anyhow, I was at the range today doing range officer duty and because it was slow (not many people showing up to shoot) I set my gun and rest up on several different benches and really dialed up and down while watching the setup move. I didn't shoot any rounds, I just watched things move and tried different things with knob pressure and side tension and various other things and I came to a form a hypothesis of why we get this POI shift sometimes. When I had a certain amount of side tension on the screws of the front rest, I could move my speed screw up from the sighter to the record and the rest would actually "pull" the gun forward on the rear bag and the front of the stock would just be slightly off of the battery stop. Then when I went down to the sighter, the stock moved rearward on the rear bag and the stop would come back into contact with the front of the stock again.
So it appeared that not only was the angle of the axis of the gun changed slightly, it also changed the location of the stock in the rear bag and front bag. This would make the initial movement of the gun under recoil be in a different place along the rearward axis of the movement. In previous experiments, I purposely shot at only the sighter target for several different groups without moving up and down, but I would start the rifle in different positions from the battery stop and it ALWAYS changed POI and it was always in the vertical plane. I'm sure everyone has got in a hurry and fired a shot off without pushing the gun back into battery and seen the result! It's usually a cursing moment when you look to see where that shot went!
So, I think the trick to beating this POI voodoo is getting a stock that doesn't care about position relative to the bags, or get bags that minimize the effect of the changing angles and positions of the stock riding on them. Or in other words, since you physically have to move the gun up and down to get from the sighter to the record, and that is unavoidable, you must get bags that don't care about the angle change or the shift in the position. And too much side tension can be a bad thing because the position change was not near as drastic when the screws were not tight. The rest didn't "pull" the stock forward when the screws were backed off.
Threading the leveling screws all the way through the rest so there is lots of room under the base of the front rest might also level out some of those angles enough somewhere in the system so that it makes the bags less fussy. This makes sense come to think of it.
At the last match I shot in, I was on a bench that was like a stink bug. Butt end WAY up in the air. It was pretty level side to side but the front of the bench was a good 1.5" or more below the back end. I had to get as much height as possible out of my leveling screws and the main pedestal thread just to get to the 100 yard target board. Thank goodness my rear bag didn't have a really fat base on it or I would not have had enough travel to make it to the target. Anyhow, during the match, I noticed that my sighters had the exact same POI as my records even better than normal. There was no vertical in the POI at all. Everything was windage just from conditions. Perhaps that high front screw setup was helping the situation. The F-Class guys might be on to something here.........
Anyhow, I was at the range today doing range officer duty and because it was slow (not many people showing up to shoot) I set my gun and rest up on several different benches and really dialed up and down while watching the setup move. I didn't shoot any rounds, I just watched things move and tried different things with knob pressure and side tension and various other things and I came to a form a hypothesis of why we get this POI shift sometimes. When I had a certain amount of side tension on the screws of the front rest, I could move my speed screw up from the sighter to the record and the rest would actually "pull" the gun forward on the rear bag and the front of the stock would just be slightly off of the battery stop. Then when I went down to the sighter, the stock moved rearward on the rear bag and the stop would come back into contact with the front of the stock again.
So it appeared that not only was the angle of the axis of the gun changed slightly, it also changed the location of the stock in the rear bag and front bag. This would make the initial movement of the gun under recoil be in a different place along the rearward axis of the movement. In previous experiments, I purposely shot at only the sighter target for several different groups without moving up and down, but I would start the rifle in different positions from the battery stop and it ALWAYS changed POI and it was always in the vertical plane. I'm sure everyone has got in a hurry and fired a shot off without pushing the gun back into battery and seen the result! It's usually a cursing moment when you look to see where that shot went!
So, I think the trick to beating this POI voodoo is getting a stock that doesn't care about position relative to the bags, or get bags that minimize the effect of the changing angles and positions of the stock riding on them. Or in other words, since you physically have to move the gun up and down to get from the sighter to the record, and that is unavoidable, you must get bags that don't care about the angle change or the shift in the position. And too much side tension can be a bad thing because the position change was not near as drastic when the screws were not tight. The rest didn't "pull" the stock forward when the screws were backed off.
Threading the leveling screws all the way through the rest so there is lots of room under the base of the front rest might also level out some of those angles enough somewhere in the system so that it makes the bags less fussy. This makes sense come to think of it.
At the last match I shot in, I was on a bench that was like a stink bug. Butt end WAY up in the air. It was pretty level side to side but the front of the bench was a good 1.5" or more below the back end. I had to get as much height as possible out of my leveling screws and the main pedestal thread just to get to the 100 yard target board. Thank goodness my rear bag didn't have a really fat base on it or I would not have had enough travel to make it to the target. Anyhow, during the match, I noticed that my sighters had the exact same POI as my records even better than normal. There was no vertical in the POI at all. Everything was windage just from conditions. Perhaps that high front screw setup was helping the situation. The F-Class guys might be on to something here.........
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Boyd Allen
Active member
There has been a lot of good discussion here, on a topic that most of us need to learn more about.
I believe it was Jerry Hensler, on another thread, that mentioned something about turning the rear bag around so that the butt stock only touches one place, rather than riding a longer area of the ears.
As to rest height, I am not sure what is going on here, but if it works for more than one person, consistently, then it would be interesting to figure out why. One thing is for sure; with a given bench, target, and rear bag height, the height of the front rest is fixed. In order to change it, one or more of the other three must be changed as well, to keep the rifle on target.
Something that has not been mentioned is whether the plate that the front bag rests on is parallel to the forend, as viewed from the side. I think that it is desirable that it is, and I have not seen much discussion of this particular aspect of rest setup.
At Visalia, shooting slightly downhill, and with the usual forend angle (up toward the front) one has to use the absolute minimal front point extension, and extend the rear screw to get the bag plate parallel to the stock. Using a bullseye level to set up the front rest would guarantee misalignment.
One question, do those who slide the rifle to get from sighter to target experience this problem?
I believe it was Jerry Hensler, on another thread, that mentioned something about turning the rear bag around so that the butt stock only touches one place, rather than riding a longer area of the ears.
As to rest height, I am not sure what is going on here, but if it works for more than one person, consistently, then it would be interesting to figure out why. One thing is for sure; with a given bench, target, and rear bag height, the height of the front rest is fixed. In order to change it, one or more of the other three must be changed as well, to keep the rifle on target.
Something that has not been mentioned is whether the plate that the front bag rests on is parallel to the forend, as viewed from the side. I think that it is desirable that it is, and I have not seen much discussion of this particular aspect of rest setup.
At Visalia, shooting slightly downhill, and with the usual forend angle (up toward the front) one has to use the absolute minimal front point extension, and extend the rear screw to get the bag plate parallel to the stock. Using a bullseye level to set up the front rest would guarantee misalignment.
One question, do those who slide the rifle to get from sighter to target experience this problem?
B
Big Al
Guest
I sure don't see any trouble using a sighter cam.