I am prepping about 50 new 220 Russian brass for a ppc i just had built. My question is, Is there anything i can be looking for while shooting these fire form loads? Should i try different seating depths, different powder charges? Primers, anything? I blew my other cases out on my primary ppc with 27.5gr n133 and if memory severs me correctly that was about as much powder as i could fit, or close to it. That's why i asked this question. Am i going to see much of anything even though my powder charges are at least a 1 grain less than what i will most likely be shooting? I guess the bottom line is, what can i be looking for while forming brass, that will help me develop the final load? Lee
Fire forming ppc, is there anything to learn?
- Thread starter skeetlee
- Start date
jackie schmidt
New member
Skeet
It is not real complicated. Most shooters seat the bullets into the lands so that when chambered, the case head is against the bolt face. However, many believe that the firing pin will drive it forward anyway. As long as they fire, that is the main thing.
I think the most important thing you can do when fireforming is to put a thin film of some type of case lube on the case body so it does not grip the chamber walls with such intesity so as to keep the case from fully forming, not only in shape, but in overall length. I use sizing wax, a very thin coat.
I just fill the case necks about 1/2 way up with 133, or something in the same burn rate, seat a suitable bullet, lube the body, and fire. ........jackie
Remember, quite a bit of the energy is used up expanding the case, that 27 grn load is pretty low on the pressure scale.......jackie
It is not real complicated. Most shooters seat the bullets into the lands so that when chambered, the case head is against the bolt face. However, many believe that the firing pin will drive it forward anyway. As long as they fire, that is the main thing.
I think the most important thing you can do when fireforming is to put a thin film of some type of case lube on the case body so it does not grip the chamber walls with such intesity so as to keep the case from fully forming, not only in shape, but in overall length. I use sizing wax, a very thin coat.
I just fill the case necks about 1/2 way up with 133, or something in the same burn rate, seat a suitable bullet, lube the body, and fire. ........jackie
Remember, quite a bit of the energy is used up expanding the case, that 27 grn load is pretty low on the pressure scale.......jackie
Lee,
There is no information to be garnered from fireforming loads that will help with your future tune.It's pretty much a waste of time except for the ppc brass it produces.Some guys have a dedicated FF barrel,hell some guys have a dedicated FF gun.In either instance oiling or waxing cases in theory gives you a more uniform case but I don't know if anyone has cross sectioned or Vern Junkied a case to prove it.I have tried it, as well as fireforming dry and can't see any appreciable difference except that the oiled cases measure a little shorter than the un-oiled cases.As far as case life or accuracy,both ways appear to yield the same results.
Being a practical kind of guy, I just keep a baggie of prepared FF ammo in my range box and use one as a fouler after I clean.Before you know it and without the mess of swabbing oil or wax out your chamber you have plenty of FF brass.The second firing on new brass I wouldn't shoot on record either but it will give you more meaningfull info on load,etc.
I like to work up a load ( higher pressure,lower pressure,etc) with older brass and find what the barrel likes then bring on the twice fired brass for a match. This way your good brass hasn't been subjected to differences in pressure.Mixing brass that has been hammered on with brass that has been loaded mildly will produce inconsistant groups.
hope this helps,
Joel
There is no information to be garnered from fireforming loads that will help with your future tune.It's pretty much a waste of time except for the ppc brass it produces.Some guys have a dedicated FF barrel,hell some guys have a dedicated FF gun.In either instance oiling or waxing cases in theory gives you a more uniform case but I don't know if anyone has cross sectioned or Vern Junkied a case to prove it.I have tried it, as well as fireforming dry and can't see any appreciable difference except that the oiled cases measure a little shorter than the un-oiled cases.As far as case life or accuracy,both ways appear to yield the same results.
Being a practical kind of guy, I just keep a baggie of prepared FF ammo in my range box and use one as a fouler after I clean.Before you know it and without the mess of swabbing oil or wax out your chamber you have plenty of FF brass.The second firing on new brass I wouldn't shoot on record either but it will give you more meaningfull info on load,etc.
I like to work up a load ( higher pressure,lower pressure,etc) with older brass and find what the barrel likes then bring on the twice fired brass for a match. This way your good brass hasn't been subjected to differences in pressure.Mixing brass that has been hammered on with brass that has been loaded mildly will produce inconsistant groups.
hope this helps,
Joel
Thanks Joel, that is some great info! I greatly appreciate that! I tried the pistol powder method a few weeks ago, and i wasnt all that impressed with it. It sure made a mess in my barrel, and the cases still probably needed shot two more times anyway. My main ppc is one heck of a shooting rifle and i didnt want to burn the barrel up on local club shoots, and i didnt even want to screw off the barrel, so i have put that rifle in the safe for the bigger shoots. I found a nice deal on another lightly used BAT SV, just like my first rifle, and i purchased a couple very low mileage (100 rounds) barrels from a fella in St Louis. I will use these two barrels for learning and playing. I have about 40 cases that i am going to dedicate to these two barrels, so it looks like i am going to have to fire form them the old fashion way "through the barrel". I guess i was hoping to learn a little bit about these barrels in the process, but i also figured what you have confirmed for me already. I will use them to learn to read the wind flags, and to fine tune my bench technique so it wont be a total bore. LOL!! My good PPC actually shot the fire forming loads very well " low 2's" during the so called barrel brake in process, so that was pretty cool, but my final tuned load wasnt even close to the load i used to FF with. I am hopeful for these two low mileage barrels i have, Heck who knows maybe they will shoot really well. The gentlemen i bought them from has a little higher standard than my self at this stage of my game so i am sure they will be fine. again man, i really appreciate the great info!! Lee
The "lubing cases when fireforming" topic seems to be coming up again. With the PPC, as Joel says, it may not be necessary. I have shot some wildcats where it is a real plus -- such as wildcats off a belted case, where initial headspacing is set by that dratted belt.
I prefer to use water-soluble case sizing lube. Makes cleaning the chamber a snap. Spit on a patch will work if that's all you can come up with.
* **
FWIW, I sized some cases using a number of lubes, including Imperial and RCBS Case Lube 2 (which is water soluble). It isn't terribly significant, but there will be slight headspace differences with the same die setting and different lubes. The variation is small, and in any case, you set the dies up based on results, so *best* is a matter of consistency, not some number.
Still, the RCBS was the slickest, and complete cleanup is obviously easy. I find that Imperial won't just wipe off with a cotton patch, you need some alcohol. Web Wipes -- used to clean the printing plates used with an offset printing press (where any scratch ruins the plate) -- will clean Imperial off the case pretty well, esp. with a bit of alcohol. I'm sure there are other materials that will work as well, I just know about Web Wipes.
I prefer to use water-soluble case sizing lube. Makes cleaning the chamber a snap. Spit on a patch will work if that's all you can come up with.
* **
FWIW, I sized some cases using a number of lubes, including Imperial and RCBS Case Lube 2 (which is water soluble). It isn't terribly significant, but there will be slight headspace differences with the same die setting and different lubes. The variation is small, and in any case, you set the dies up based on results, so *best* is a matter of consistency, not some number.
Still, the RCBS was the slickest, and complete cleanup is obviously easy. I find that Imperial won't just wipe off with a cotton patch, you need some alcohol. Web Wipes -- used to clean the printing plates used with an offset printing press (where any scratch ruins the plate) -- will clean Imperial off the case pretty well, esp. with a bit of alcohol. I'm sure there are other materials that will work as well, I just know about Web Wipes.
Well I must have another good barrel! My FF Loads shot several 5 shot groups in the high 1's and a couple low 2's. That was with 27.5gr N133 08 lot powder, and BiB 67gr bullets stuffed in the lands. Now that i have about 35 pieces of brass, were do i start?? That's the question. I think i will start with the bullet in the same jam and 28.5gr of N133 and go from there. I also used some CCI BR primers i had on hand and they seemed to work pretty darn well. Maybe i will stick with these as well. I really enjoy finding the right road for a rifle so this should be a lot of fun!! Thanks Lee
PS Would 27.5gr of 133 be considered a lot of pressure for the 220 russian case? Will i most likely find my tune with a high pressure load in the now ppc case? The 27.5 in the 220 russian case was definitely compressed. Time will tell i guess!! Lee
PS Would 27.5gr of 133 be considered a lot of pressure for the 220 russian case? Will i most likely find my tune with a high pressure load in the now ppc case? The 27.5 in the 220 russian case was definitely compressed. Time will tell i guess!! Lee
Lee,
27.5 is a very light load in a 6PPC once fireformed. Throw 28.8 - 29.0 grains in the case to start out with. Find the best seating depth with this (cuts tiny holes) then play with the powder charge. Start at .010 off of jam and back out .003-.005 at a time. You only have to shoot three shot groups during this. If your always moving the bullet in (deaper), if you fire the first two shots and they don't touch, then you have a extra round to seat deaper for the next try. This way you'll use up less components (cheaper) and less barrel life (again, cheaper). Once again though, look at the bullet holes your cutting in the paper, they should look little and very round....this is quite important.
Hovis
27.5 is a very light load in a 6PPC once fireformed. Throw 28.8 - 29.0 grains in the case to start out with. Find the best seating depth with this (cuts tiny holes) then play with the powder charge. Start at .010 off of jam and back out .003-.005 at a time. You only have to shoot three shot groups during this. If your always moving the bullet in (deaper), if you fire the first two shots and they don't touch, then you have a extra round to seat deaper for the next try. This way you'll use up less components (cheaper) and less barrel life (again, cheaper). Once again though, look at the bullet holes your cutting in the paper, they should look little and very round....this is quite important.
Hovis
A
amamnn
Guest
On a related subject and not to try to hijack the thread, but......... A while ago I read that Jackie and maybe some others were blowing out 6mmBR cases to .30BR cases by fireforming in a chamber that had the neck area reamed out to .330" which seems to me a superior method. I have an old 6BR barrel and tried to interest several gunsmiths in doing that for me since I have no tools for such a project. You would have thought I was asking them to build an anti-gravity flying saucer to fly to Betelgeuse. To say none of them were any help at all is an understatement.
Can someone reveal the secret? How to do it; so I can hopefully find a gunsmith willing to learn something new? The one and only smith who was also a BR shooter and within my limited driving range, retired.
Thanks
Can someone reveal the secret? How to do it; so I can hopefully find a gunsmith willing to learn something new? The one and only smith who was also a BR shooter and within my limited driving range, retired.
Thanks
Amamn,
Somehow your memory is faulty
No one, no where, no how has ever recommended nor even tried reaming a 6MMBR barrel to .330 neck......
The .330 nekkid chambers mentioned were in 30 caliber barrels.
Ain't NOBODY gonna' do this project as you're envisioning it be done.
al
A
amamnn
Guest
While it is true that I am over the hill to the point of being considered old, arthritic, half bald, deaf and lame, I do have two things in good working order: my teeth and my memory.
A link to the thread I mentioned was sent to me by a shooter who knew I had rebarreld my 6BR and was working up 30BR loads. He thought it was a novel way to form brass and that I would be interested. a[[arently the method was mentioned in passing on a thread which does not say 30BR in the title, as I have searched a few times to try to find it, not having kept the e-mail my friend sent and he not having the thread title either.
I did not pay a whole lot of attention to it at the time except to note that it was a barrel and chamber as I described which seemed like a good idea, but there is no smith left in my area that I would trust to ream, drill, bore or otherwise ruin any firearm I own even if it was just to be used in fireforming. I thought there might be someone who knew who could do a similar job for me--and I could possibly ship the barrel to ---apparently I was wrong.
A link to the thread I mentioned was sent to me by a shooter who knew I had rebarreld my 6BR and was working up 30BR loads. He thought it was a novel way to form brass and that I would be interested. a[[arently the method was mentioned in passing on a thread which does not say 30BR in the title, as I have searched a few times to try to find it, not having kept the e-mail my friend sent and he not having the thread title either.
I did not pay a whole lot of attention to it at the time except to note that it was a barrel and chamber as I described which seemed like a good idea, but there is no smith left in my area that I would trust to ream, drill, bore or otherwise ruin any firearm I own even if it was just to be used in fireforming. I thought there might be someone who knew who could do a similar job for me--and I could possibly ship the barrel to ---apparently I was wrong.
Last edited by a moderator:
I think this might be the thread you're talking about
http://benchrest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47200&highlight=30br
http://benchrest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47200&highlight=30br
jackie schmidt
New member
Oh, Al
Guilty........jackie
Guilty........jackie
I love it when I'm wrong!
I thought the method involved fireforming without a bullet.....Blowing the neck out using shotgun or pistol powder, and the concept scared me a liddle.
I WAS WRONG!
Sorry Amamnn, at least you got the right answer. That's the beauty of this particular medium, the proofing/peer review is done onsite in real time.
very interesting and uniquely out-of-the-box method indeedy.
al
I thought the method involved fireforming without a bullet.....Blowing the neck out using shotgun or pistol powder, and the concept scared me a liddle.
I WAS WRONG!
Sorry Amamnn, at least you got the right answer.
That's the beauty of this particular medium, the proofing/peer review is done onsite in real time.very interesting and uniquely out-of-the-box method indeedy.
al
A
amamnn
Guest
Ok--thanks for all the input guys--still--how do I convince someone that this can be done to my old useless D___ss 6br barrel? The most polite answer I have got so far, from a gunsmith I thought capable of BR work, turning me down was that the pilot of the reamer to make a .39BR chamber would not fit in a 6BR barrel. I won't mention the other replies.
T
tgvet
Guest
Fire forming
Well, I'm more or less considered a newbie although, I've been shooting and reloading for over 30 years. I'm finally getting my 6PPC Sako Varminter going again after stored for several years.
I've got a post going waiting for a reply, but thought I'd add this here even though it's a month past the last post reply.
I've read that up to the neck with pistol powder and wax works excellent and saves the barrel at the same time. Have not tried it yet, but before I do I hope to get some feedback on using a hot glue gun. Just a dab of course. Reason for the hot glue gun is it seams like a very fast and simple way.
Not knowing if any drawbacks though to what may happen inside the bore brings my question to the more experienced here. I would assume that wax would blow right out and if any residual was left would clean fairly easy. BUT glue, that's the question ??
Well, I'm more or less considered a newbie although, I've been shooting and reloading for over 30 years. I'm finally getting my 6PPC Sako Varminter going again after stored for several years.
I've got a post going waiting for a reply, but thought I'd add this here even though it's a month past the last post reply.
I've read that up to the neck with pistol powder and wax works excellent and saves the barrel at the same time. Have not tried it yet, but before I do I hope to get some feedback on using a hot glue gun. Just a dab of course. Reason for the hot glue gun is it seams like a very fast and simple way.
Not knowing if any drawbacks though to what may happen inside the bore brings my question to the more experienced here. I would assume that wax would blow right out and if any residual was left would clean fairly easy. BUT glue, that's the question ??