Ever wonder - Skill vs Equipment? What's role do they play in our success?

Bill B

New member
For awhile I've wondered how much does our equipment vs skills contribute to benchrest success. Everyone agrees you need a combination of both to succeed but how much is attributed to good equipment and how much is acquired skills.

I have a buddy visiting me, up here from NC to do some deer hunting. He was available this afternoon so I asked him if he wanted to try .22 benchrest. On our first target I set him up with my Stiller 2500X (the Un-Calfee) and my Van Ahrens one piece rest. I shot my old Turbo with a two piece rest (Hart/Fudd top and Edgewood rear). Both rifles are well tuned and we both shot the same lot of proven excellent ammo. I set up my wind flags between our two benches. The only coaching I did was to tell him to shoot a few sighters, watch the flags and to shoot free-recoil and not touch the rifle except for the trigger.

My buddy is a decent shot on game but has never done any competition rifle shooting. I told him to fire a few warm-up shots, then go to his sighters, watch the flags and figure out your holds. I set my timer for 30 minutes and off we went. The conditions were cloudy, winds of about 5-10 mph but not too switchy. We had primarily a right to left condition. Temp was in the low 40s.

I shot a 249-14X on my first target with one shot going a bit high and left as I misjudged the hold for a slight velocity change. My buddy shot a 247-12X, shooting 3 - 9s. He only used about 15 min. to shoot the target and only shot about 35 shots. We then switched rifles/set-up. I told him not to rush and use his sighters.

With the Turbo he shot a 247-16X, took more time and shot more sighters. He had one ooops where he hit the light trigger before he meant to. Again he had 3 - 9s. I shot a 250-16X with the Un-Calfee.

While this is not scientific and only one new shooter and one day, I think the experiment has some value especially for beginners. With top shelf equipment, perfectly tuned and excellent ammo a green beginner can average 247 and 14Xs in less than perfect conditions. My 14 years of experience shooting this game accounted for 2-3 pts and a couple Xs per target. Of course that is what it takes to win. But if a beginner is practicing and shooting over flags and is struggling to consistently shoot decent scores, look to issues with your equipment or ammo. My buddy kept saying how easy it was to hit Xs and figured out the holds pretty quickly. Hope this is helpful to some of you beginners out there thinking of ways to improve.
 
Takes both

Bill,
I find it takes a good amount of both. I am no top shooter by any means. I still use a factory rifle and bi-pods. My personal best has been a 250-21X with scores usually in the 247-250 range with Xs in the high teens.

I like watching good shooters work. Some like you, touch nothing but the trigger and do very well, while some do not. Others actually hold or touch the rifle in some way and do very well. In my case, I actually hold mine behind the trigger guard, my trigger is 12-14 oz. I shoot with a group of friends and several of them can shoot 250's with high X counts with factory rifles, without the aid of a tuner or a rest, just bi-pods. Another friend of mine recently shot a 250-21X at Piney Hill at a IR50 match with a 82G Kimber, he was using a tuner and a Randolph rest, but the rifle is factory. Now I call that skill. BR is like any other sport or hobby, it takes practice and good equipment.

George
 
I'll ask this question. How can you possibly learn to shoot the X with a rifle that won't shoot X's? It's all about the rifle and ammo. Certainly, a competitor can lose with the best rifle but on the other hand he can't win with less.

You simply can't teach a bum rifle to shoot X's. Conversely, a good rifle can teach you how to shoot X's.
 
Bill,
I find it takes a good amount of both. I am no top shooter by any means. I still use a factory rifle and bi-pods. My personal best has been a 250-21X with scores usually in the 247-250 range with Xs in the high teens.

I like watching good shooters work. Some like you, touch nothing but the trigger and do very well, while some do not. Others actually hold or touch the rifle in some way and do very well. In my case, I actually hold mine behind the trigger guard, my trigger is 12-14 oz. I shoot with a group of friends and several of them can shoot 250's with high X counts with factory rifles, without the aid of a tuner or a rest, just bi-pods. Another friend of mine recently shot a 250-21X at Piney Hill at a IR50 match with a 82G Kimber, he was using a tuner and a Randolph rest, but the rifle is factory. Now I call that skill. BR is like any other sport or hobby, it takes practice and good equipment.

George

George, I agree with your opening statement and said as much in my post. I had my friend shoot free recoil, cause that is what I'm set up for. If he was to have held on, or trigger pinch, I would have no clue as to how the set-up would respond and I wanted to keep things as identical as possible, same rigs, same ammo, same shooting style, with the only difference being one of experience in doping the wind. Of course, my rifles are set up to shoot free-recoil and I don't trigger pinch because I happen to believe that gives me the most consistency and less chance of introducing human error. I have seen other good shooters (but a minority) that hold on to their rifles or finger pinch the trigger.

Regarding shooting indoors, my belief is that once you have a rifle tuned up and have chosen the right ammo for indoors, that shooting indoors is mostly a test of equipment. There are a few tricks/methods that seem to be unique to indoors but certainly wind doping skills is not a factor. IMO, wind doping is 95% of the skill needed by the shooter for success. What I wanted to find out is how many points will the equipment give you with a first time benchrest shooter behind the trigger trying to figure out the holds. The consistency in his scores was eye opening and his scores were about 5-7 points higher than I would have predicted. It could be that he has a talent for it. He does have an analytical mind.
 
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I'll ask this question. How can you possibly learn to shoot the X with a rifle that won't shoot X's? It's all about the rifle and ammo. Certainly, a competitor can lose with the best rifle but on the other hand he can't win with less.

You simply can't teach a bum rifle to shoot X's. Conversely, a good rifle can teach you how to shoot X's.

Wilbur, I'll answer your question: You can't. I agree with your post completely. You can't learn to shoot 10s or Xs with a rifle that is not capable of consistently hitting them. Only then can you figure out how to effectively dope the wind and consistency is the key. Otherwise, you are only chasing your tail. An inconsistent rifle/ammo may give you a good score once in awhile but will drive you nuts.

Now, if conditions had been worse (heavier winds, mirage, unstable/switchy winds), I would expect that our scores would have been farther apart and my experience with those conditions would have been more important. But, these conditions were far from perfect and required more than just holding on the dot and pulling the trigger. I'm fairly certain though that had this been a regular match at my club, my buddy would have beat a few shooters with more experience. Great equipment is important, you can't build a sturdy house with rotten wood.
 
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In all our disciplines, the one thing makes me see red are those lines "perfect rifle for a beginner" when use to describe junk.
 
Commitment before equipment

I was asked that question quite often back in the late 90's. I was shooting an old worn out Win 52D. Of course at that time, almost everyone was shooting Factory Barreled Actions. I paid the price and was committed to being the best, and for a while, I was. I told several, that asked what was more important. I told them if you are not committed, you will not spend the $$$$'s necessary to be competitive. If you were willing to spend the $$$$'s, you better be prepared to PPP, and then some. Believe me, the winners, don't shoot just once a month.
 
Bill: Sometimes it is also beginners luck. I had a lady ask me about shooting in our Tuesday evening league a few years ago. We shoot the PSL card for money and bragging rights.
After talking to her a bit I discovered she had not a clue as to what we were doing. I invited her to attend one evening and I'd set her up and let her give it a try. I shot one relay, left everything set up including ammo and had her set down to shoot the next relay. End result that first card she shot was the high card of the relay and high card for the evening so yes, she took home the cash. Against our better advice she went out and bought some gear and quit after a year because she could not duplicate that first evening. So, yes equipment helps but so does practice and perseverance. bob
 
You can learn form anything.

I'll ask this question. How can you possibly learn to shoot the X with a rifle that won't shoot X's? It's all about the rifle and ammo. Certainly, a competitor can lose with the best rifle but on the other hand he can't win with less.

You simply can't teach a bum rifle to shoot X's. Conversely, a good rifle can teach you how to shoot X's.

Wilbur,
I will agree that shooting a bum rifle won't get you far, but it will teach you something. When I started 5 years ago, I had a H&R M12, shooting USBR cards. A 225 - 235 was about average for me, even managed a 240 once. Then a friend of mine let me shoot his 52D, it was all over then. I found out I did not have much of a rifle. Needless to say I was not too long in getting a 52D. Since then, hitting 10's is easy enough. The H&R taught me how to milk the most accuracy out of a rifle.

Every rifle is about as different as each shooter is. You have to practice with it to learn what it likes. If a rifle and the shooter has the capability to shoot two or three rows of 50 and 5Xs, then it and the shooter has the capability of winning a match. For the serious shooter, a full custom is the way to go, personally I like the old school rifles. I get a kick out of just placing in the top 10 and if its better than that, I had a really good day.

George
 
Well, I'll explain another interesting twist to this question of skill vs. equipment. I took my 8 year old son to his first match this year at Edwardsburg, MI shooting sanctioned ARA. We shared my Benchmark 40X and shot different relays. This is a proven rifle that has several top 10 finishes in PSL and ARA Nats. We did not shoot same ammo, but he did shoot a good lot that was capable of winning a club match. I finished 1st and my son finished last (13th). I'd put more stock in his lack of experience as the cause of that. A bit of this sport also requires a bit of intelligence. I am not insinuating by any means that my son doesn't have any, but am saying that he being only 8 years of age doesn't have the mental ability of his 46 year old father. Now, it wasn't a particularly easy day to shoot so I figured if I tricked the scope for the prevailing conditions that he'd do better. On his last target I watched through the spotting scope as he drilled 4 dots out to start the target. As he continued to shoot well through his first 20 bulls I was excited that he may shoot his first 2000+ target. But as rimfire bench rest shooting goes he ran into trouble as the flags turned from a right to left condition 180 degrees. He had like a 135 last row for a 1710. That was a great target for him in his first match in tough conditions and I am proud of him for it. But, i will say that you have to have equipment that is competitive, not necessarily top notch, and experience to win at the local level. To win at the national level you'd better have both.

Carp
 
Carp: You did not say. Did he stand up or kneel on the stool? Don't sell the boy short. Think how much more experience he will have at 46 than you do. I love to see the kids out there competing. They have a ball, their parents grin from ear to ear and the rest of us know there is a future for this game we love. bob
 
Carp: You did not say. Did he stand up or kneel on the stool? Don't sell the boy short. Think how much more experience he will have at 46 than you do. I love to see the kids out there competing. They have a ball, their parents grin from ear to ear and the rest of us know there is a future for this game we love. bob

On that particular day he kneeled on the shooting stool. LOL Bob. He prefers to stand while shooting at most ranges because he is too tall kneeling on the stool, too short to sit on the stool but just about right standing. At Hillsdale, however, we have to have a 4" block for him to stand on because the benches are the tallest we shoot off of. I cannot imagine what experience he'll have if he continues bench rest type shooting. It will be scary at best. I cannot tell you the thrill of watching hm through the spotting scope knocking dots out. When I see him get 5 in a row it is quite possibly the best feeling shy of making him. LOL

Carp
 
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