Equality?

The discussion of how we should be taxed is always an interesting one. One of its features is that people have the habit of offering simple solutions to complicated problems. Here are a couple of things (by no means a complete list) that you might consider.

First of all, it has always seemed to me that if the government allows a deduction that does not apply to everyone, then it is in effect forcing those who do not qualify for it to subsidize those that do.

Let me give an easy example. Within my adult lifetime, there was a time when all interest was deductible. During that time, it seemed unfair to me that I was forced to subsidize the extravagant lifestyles of those who lived in a state of high indebtedness, mostly from buying things that I did not afford myself, having chosen to live pay as you go, saving for what I bought.

During that same time, the size of the personal deduction had become much smaller, relative to the cost of living, because of long term inflation, and a lack of adjustment.

As a result, in effect, the government was forcing the working poor to pay taxes down to a level that effected their ability to afford the necessities of life, to subsidize the lifestyles of people who may have been living much less responsibly.

On top of that, the general cost of living has always been made larger by the increase in product costs that were the result of businesses having to absorb costs resulting from bankruptcy laws, which have been abused to a great extent over the years, again, by folks that have taken advantage of liberal credit, and undoubtedly written off a good deal of the interest expense.

So, before you go beating up on anyone, you might consider what has been done to the working poor over the years, such as taxing them to provide benefits that they could, and can not afford for themselves.

This is not to say that I think that we should not allow any deductions, or that we should not allow declaration of bankruptcy. These are just examples of what seem to me to have been, and continue to be, inequities that have effected working people throughout the country.

While you are bleeding for the well to do, give a little thought for those who work, pay taxes and struggle to exist. Where is their Rush Linbaugh? To me, trickle down, has always seemed more like trickle on.

Just as a frame of reference, I write this as a lifelong Republican, and fiscal conservative, a point of view, that seems to have been long out of fashion in both parties. I will leave you with one question, and one little research assignment. How smart is it to borrow money so that we can spend it on foreign aid? Have you tracked the increases in the national debt post WWII, looking at which administrations showed the greatest increases? You might find that enlightening.

If we want things from our government, we should be willing to pay for them, and not simply pile those costs onto future generations, who have no voice in the matter. How did that go? No taxation without representation?
 
Man. You seem to equate poor/less fortunate with the lazy , that might be the case, but chances are that is not, there are plenty of people out there who simply cannot find a job not because they are lazy, but because they simply cant find a job.. The programs exist to help those, think of it as a contribution to society. Same with Medicaid, Medicare, those who are too old to work and have no other means to care for themselves. You may do well, but as a society of mostly Christians, its good to contribute if by no other means. That is why America is great, ‘equality’, meaning you help your fellow citizens & neighbors. Does this make you sound like a greedy bastard who would step on the the neck of an old lady to make and extra buck? …probably.. No one is forcing you to pay for others directly per say, it is just simple taxes, that are part of society, do you feel you are so above it that you do not think you are responsible to your part? If you do, you are no different than your fellow elitist american democrat..



I realize your post is aimed at Bill Ohio. I cannot speak for Bill. I do not know Bill at all.
Wether Bill knows it or not he just began to espouse the philosophy of Objectivism. Like any philosophy its much too complicated to explain in a forum.
If your interested in how someone (can't speak for Bill) could suggest the things Bill posted you also should read the book Atlas Shrugged.
You will find how its possible for a generous, decent, caring person to suggest the word equality is a mortal sin.
If your mind is capable of new ideas and you'd like to understand why the world has run amok that book is the first step.

FWIW in my opinion. Objectivism is dead before it was ever tried. We've gone too far in the wrong direction and I can't forsee the possibility of ever turning society back.
That being said, it does'nt hurt to understand where we went wrong.
 
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Bill Ohio: Your stance is the same kind of wrong as the stance of the first post. Both would see the end of civilization as we know it. The "only what you need and the rest goes to others" will mean we only live to survive and nothing more. Your way of thinking will create an elite group tha have everything and leave everyone that is not a millionair to croak. Apparantly many people can only see their own perspective, which is black and white it seems.

)chill( )chill( )chill(
 
Was reading a column at the Town Hall web site about Phil Mickelson the golfer who's upset at how much taxes he'll be paying in California. The following is a comment posted by a reader.

Loyal Democrat Wrote:
The man should indeed apologize. For every surplus dollar he has, that is one dollar that was denied to a poor person. Thus, by hoarding so much wealth, the man has in effect stolen from the poor. Why such theft is not grounds for imprisonment just shows how rotten our greedy nation really is.

Once a person makes enough to pay their basic bills, they have enough money. Their surplus income should then be taken away and applied toward paying for the needs of the people who are not lucky enough to get a high paying job. People cannot achieve true equality so long as some are permitted to have more than others. Our nation was founded upon the principle of equality, yet we still endure inequality in the living standards.

Interesting how some people think. Especially telling is the phrase "permitted to have more than others".

I thought this thread was about the above statement. The person who wrote that is surely jerking our chain, just for the exercise. The cat had to know that this was an absurd statement.

Tax's are a fact of life no if ands or buts about it. I personally don't have a problem with paying them or if some of that money is spent "helping" people. Helping folks down on there luck is a good thing however "supporting" those folks is a complettly different ball of yarn. The welfare system was intended to "HELP" not "SUPPORT" folks.

It was mentioned here that some people just cannot find a job, there not lazy just not able to find work. OK I am sure that is true sometimes, however for how long do you get to be on the public dole and not able to find a job? When does a helping hand up stop being that a hand up and become a "Hand Out". There are some of these "NON LAZY" people that have been on welfare for decades, surely you don't harbor under the illusion that in that period of time "The were just not able to find a job" Do You?

If a person doesn't get to reap what they have sown, that sowing part isn't of much good anymore. I mean why does anyone want to go out work two and sometimes three jobs, get the experience and education needed to make "Themself" a succes if the motivation is you will have to give all of it away to support the ones who will not do this?

Roland
 
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I hope my kids get to shoot with their kids.... but meeting today's shooters I have my doubts.

"Created equal" ....... it means that when you roll out on the floor that very first time you get to stand up and choose your direction.

"The pursuit of happiness"....... "shall not be infringed"...... "endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights".....


I mean, why do we have to "define" and interpret this stuff? Our Constitution is written in street language. To give street people some rules to live by. And it was written as it was TO KEEP THESE SAME STREET PEOPLE FROM BUGGERING IT ALL UP WITH THEIR PET THEORIES!!!

We are NOT a "democracy."

on purpose

al
 
“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.”

----------

“This system of Constitution-making, for the purpose of establishing constitutionally limited government, is designed to put into practice the principle of the Declaration of Independence: that the people form their governments and grant to them only "just powers," limited powers, in order primarily to secure (to make and keep secure) their God-given, unalienable rights. The American philosophy and system of government thus bar equally the "snob-rule" of a governing Elite and the "mob-rule" of an Omnipotent Majority. This is designed, above all else, to preclude the existence in America of any governmental power capable of being misused so as to violate The Individual’s rights--to endanger the people’s liberties.”




Individual rights are not subject to a public vote; a majority has no right to vote away the rights of a minority; the political function of rights is precisely to protect minorities from oppression by majorities (and the smallest minority on earth is the individual).
—Ayn Rand

Just wondering. Would you disagree with that statement?
 
I see your point but this is whats happening. People think that equal rights and equal opportunity give equal results.
The whole issue is based on morality.
 
This nation is getting sicker by the minute. We're losing our country folks.


I've been saying that for years. Wouldn't bother me if I quit reading everything and totally stopped watching tv and the so called news. Problem is.......I still have some S&H green Stamps ! If I lived in the south like some of you folks, I could do that because then I'd spend all my time fishing & shooting.
 
alinwa sorry to burst your bubble, but we are not a DEMOCRACY, WE ARE A REPUBLIC FOR WHICH IT STANDS ONE NATION UNDER GOD. Remember Democracy is majority rules, we have Idiot representatives.My Wife reminds me all the time.

Joe Salt
 
joe...
go reread...
it clearly says
we are NOT a democarcy..for a reason...

mike in co


alinwa sorry to burst your bubble, but we are not a DEMOCRACY, WE ARE A REPUBLIC FOR WHICH IT STANDS ONE NATION UNDER GOD. Remember Democracy is majority rules, we have Idiot representatives.My Wife reminds me all the time.

Joe Salt
 
no ..al clearly said WE NOT A DEMORCACY...you said he said we are..he did not...noo not not....
you misquoted al..is what i was saying....

"We are NOT a "democracy."

on purpose

al "

mike in co
Mike sorry I left out MOB RULE, is that what you mean I did say we are not a Democracy!

Joe Salt
 
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