Elictrinic scales

Klayton

What some one did to their gun prior to the match has nothing to do with anything. Someone putting their gun on the scale is meaningless as far as a check weight.
 
Actually Klayton my turret covers were off when initially weighed. I don't have any lens covers. The 1st time I put it on the scale it was 7.84. I lifted the rifle off the scales & asked them to be zeroed & set it back on. It then was 7.82 every time after including this morning.
Those are the same rings I've had on it since day 1.
I felt like you guys ruled on it as you should have. It was over weight.
Keith
 
Weight and scale

I have no horse in this race, but to be fair to Keith , I will say the Match Director was asked
to go home and bring his weights back before any decision on the outcome was made
Ray
 
Weight issue

In a conversation with William today at the meters match, he indicated to me that he had told Wayne Wills about no type of calibration weights were present in his phone call last night. Our decision was accepted. All opinions put forth by others, on this unfortunate issue, are noted as being expressed in hindsight. So my recommendation is lets all of us work with Wayne instead of beating this to death on this forum. Thank you also to all Match Directors and shooters who take on Referee responsibilities for your uncompensated dedication to our sport and the at times thankless decisions that are made.
 
Kieth

Thank you for the correction. Your recollection of the events is accepted. Ray thank you for your input, you have added a factor, taken into account by which we came to our call.
 
Decal

Gordon, it is good to hear from you again. I think you may still owe me a decal that was going to be stuck on a certain door, from last year. Klayton PS you can send it to Kieth, Ted, or Ray Hill and I'm sure they will get it to me.
 
Klayton

Sweep it under the rug. Forget the rules. If someone forgets equipment needed to run the match. That's ok. If the refs. make a poor decision. That's ok. You could make up scores and people could save ammo. Draw for scores. A small group should not be able to decide the outcome of a match without following the rules.
 
Decal or no decal.

Gordon, It is in Wayne's hands now, let us work with him for a workable solution. Decal or not is my question now. PS Good night this old man needs his beauty sleep. And I give credit where it is due....You are to be commended for the quality of your rifles. William did you proud this weekend. I told him after his accomplishments the cost of your rifles will probably go up! Klayton
 
Klayton

This is not a witch hunt on my part. I deal with this weight thing every day. Put yourself in my shoes. I put a gun together for you. It makes weight by my scale. You go to a match and win. The gun gets a Dq. for 2 tenths of a ounce. From a scale that is not calibrated.

Congratulations to all the shooters and their fine scores. William told me i had to buy him a Lobster dinner.:rolleyes:
 
OK Guys,
After the match on Saturday I received a call about the DQ issues. At that time I was told about what had happened. As most of you know, I answer my phone or return a call almost Immediately. Had I been called during the discussion about the gun weight I would have had the option of issuing a variance on the gun weight based on the weighing of the gun at Salem a week or so before. I am not saying I would have allowed the score, but I would have had the option.
After the fact, I have no option but to support the decision of the referees. Keith has been the gentleman I have known and has been gracious in accepting what happened. Thank you Keith. Everyone was upset about the DQ's. I am upset about the DQ's. I can't however, second guess every decision made at every range. I have to accept decisions made by the referees at the time or I will be asked to change scores. rescore targets, Change results etc. That would be total chaos.
The scales were checked on Sunday with weights , the gun was weighed again and was still overweight. Keith changed scopes at that time and continued the match.
I have opened the discussion with my Match Directors about how to avoid this same thing happening in the future. Is anyone happy about what happened? The answer is no, but we can work to see that something like this does not occur again.
I am sure the entire shooting world is going to weigh in on this, but it is what it is. I have heard from several shooters that attended the Match and they have been very positive about the match, the referees and the Match Director.
I have answered about 10 phone calls so far and discussed the issue at length. It is time to put it to rest and get on to seeing what we can do to avoid this happening again.
Again, the people who were most effected by the issue have handled it most properly and I thank them for that.

Wayne Wills
 
ewwills said:
OK Guys,
After the match on Saturday I received a call about the DQ issues. At that time I was told about what had happened. As most of you know, I answer my phone or return a call almost Immediately. Had I been called during the discussion about the gun weight I would have had the option of issuing a variance on the gun weight based on the weighing of the gun at Salem a week or so before. I am not saying I would have allowed the score, but I would have had the option.
After the fact, I have no option but to support the decision of the referees. Keith has been the gentleman I have known and has been gracious in accepting what happened. Thank you Keith. Everyone was upset about the DQ's. I am upset about the DQ's. I can't however, second guess every decision made at every range. I have to accept decisions made by the referees at the time or I will be asked to change scores. rescore targets, Change results etc. That would be total chaos.
The scales were checked on Sunday with weights , the gun was weighed again and was still overweight. Keith changed scopes at that time and continued the match.
I have opened the discussion with my Match Directors about how to avoid this same thing happening in the future. Is anyone happy about what happened? The answer is no, but we can work to see that something like this does not occur again.
I am sure the entire shooting world is going to weigh in on this, but it is what it is. I have heard from several shooters that attended the Match and they have been very positive about the match, the referees and the Match Director.
I have answered about 10 phone calls so far and discussed the issue at length. It is time to put it to rest and get on to seeing what we can do to avoid this happening again.
Again, the people who were most effected by the issue have handled it most properly and I thank them for that.

Wayne Wills
Click to expand...


It explicitly states in the rules the Match Director will have certified weights at each state match, which was not present. The match director refused to get the weights at home as it was too long of a drive. Weighing any rifle the next day is bogus. You have a referee's stating the rifle was weighed with scope caps ? The first time the rifle was weighed it was 7.4 next time 7.2 ? The rifle had no scope caps.


Wayne good luck to you .........This is why IR 50/50 is dying a slow death !!!

If the match director was not adhering to the rules it should not count . Your world records will not mean anything.

It goes from the good to the bad to the worst !!

Have a nice day...
 
tuna921 said:
It explicitly states in the rules the Match Director will have certified weights at each state match, which was not present. The match director refused to get the weights at home as it was too long of a drive. Weighing any rifle the next day is bogus. You have a referee's stating the rifle was weighed with scope caps ? The first time the rifle was weighed it was 7.4 next time 7.2 ? The rifle had no scope caps.


Wayne good luck to you .........This is why IR 50/50 is dying a slow death !!!

If the match director was not adhering to the rules it should not count . Your world records will not mean anything.

It goes from the good to the bad to the worst !!

Have a nice day...
Click to expand...

The rifle was weighed without the turret covers every time. It was weighed exactly the way I shoot it. Every time.
I get you guys point about the weights not being there but I would like to add that Pete & the referees are as honest as the day are long. I'm confident that the scales were checked & the proper ruling issued.
Let's not take away from William's potential records because of this BS. He shot his butt off & deserves everything coming to him.
His rifle was of legal weight. Mine wasn't. Lets not turn this into something any different.
Keith
 
Weight issue

"Fan Mail From Some Flounder" Bullwinkle J. Moose
tuna921 said:
IR 50/50 Rules state :

SCALES

Scales must be available to all shooters to determine class. Each club should have a 7.5 lb. weight, a 10.5 lb. weight, and a 13.5 lb. weight to check scale accuracy. Weights may be checked for accuracy at any United States Post Office.

Sounds like the DQ wasn't valid ,if the Match Director and Referee's did not follow the rules. Leaving the weights at home is a poor excuse.

If this is the case the Match Director should reinstate yours score. It was an error on his part and it is not the shooters responsibility,
Click to expand...


SCALES
Scales must be available to all shooters to determine class. Each club should have a 7.5 lb. weight, a 10.5 lb. weight, and a 13.5 lb. weight to check scale accuracy. Weights may be checked for accuracy at any United States Post Office.

should and may leave quite a bit of good old wiggle room.
 
linekin said:
The rifle was weighed without the turret covers every time. It was weighed exactly the way I shoot it. Every time.
I get you guys point about the weights not being there but I would like to add that Pete & the referees are as honest as the day are long. I'm confident that the scales were checked & the proper ruling issued.
Let's not take away from William's potential records because of this BS. He shot his butt off & deserves everything coming to him.
His rifle was of legal weight. Mine wasn't. Lets not turn this into something any different.
Keith
Click to expand...

Keith,
Thanks for summing it up properly.

Wayne
 
7.8 lbs means trouble

I have a sporter that is a little more then 1 OZ lighter then the 7lb.8oz max wt allowed. I have 5 wt stickers on the butt-plate of the rifle. Why? To show everyone that scales do not always wt the same. Of the 5 weight-in's from 5 different clubs, none were the same. To have the rifles wt at the max wt allowed is going to cause you problems sooner or later. DJB
 
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If there were no check weights the rifles should not have been weighed - it's pointless. On the other hand, the deed is done and an official protest is the only thing that remains.

Have y'all ever tried to buy check weights...they're somewhat expensive...but absolutely necessary. Additionally, why would anybody think the post office would have accurate scales? I'm just asking as I don't know. Maybe they check their scales on a daily basis or something.....
_________________________________________

While we're here, we could help Wayne with the rule. Black Jack makes a good point - the rule is not really a rule but rather a loose statement that doesn't mean squat. I believe I wrote that rule except for the thing about the Post Office - could be wrong. It's a good rule until it's challenged and then it's a terrible rule. The reason it's written that way is to allow clubs to host a match without having to buy check weights. That said, if there was somebody in the area that had check weights, and brought them to a match, then weigh rifles! The NBRSA supplies check weights to the regional director for just that purpose. You don't have to weigh every match to keep the rifles in check.

Now, go the other way and consider a scale that doesn't weigh the check weights within the allowance of the rules. What do you do? I know the answer but am curious as to what y'all think.

Sometime, somewhere, you gotta have check weights and a scale that weighs them within the tolerance of the rule. The current 50/50 rule is a scare tactic and that's all it is until you have a suitable scale and a set of check weights. As I stated, there are clubs that shouldn't be required to buy check weights and the current "rule" allows that to happen. It's actually a pretty good "rule"...until now...and one time before I believe. As they say, "It's all about the money".

There's a club somewhere that has a plastic milk jug with lead shot that they use as a check weight. I questioned the the fellow hosting the match about the weight and he was right on with his answer. He stated that he had the weight made because he knew his scale was cheap and the weight kept him straight. I thought it was a good idea at the time but didn't say much about it because I didn't want to think about the many ways such a weight could affect folks - mainly myself. Maybe somebody can figure out a way to make a similar weight that's cheap.
 
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Here's something else to think about.

Maybe if you don't have check weights then you shouldn't be allowed to hold State and or Regional matches.
 
Wilbur said:
If there were no check weights the rifles should not have been weighed - it's pointless. On the other hand, the deed is done and an official protest is the only thing that remains.

Have y'all ever tried to buy check weights...they're somewhat expensive...but absolutely necessary. Additionally, why would anybody think the post office would have accurate scales? I'm just asking as I don't know. Maybe they check their scales on a daily basis or something.....
_________________________________________

While we're here, we could help Wayne with the rule. Black Jack makes a good point - the rule is not really a rule but rather a loose statement that doesn't mean squat. I believe I wrote that rule except for the thing about the Post Office - could be wrong. It's a good rule until it's challenged and then it's a terrible rule. The reason it's written that way is to allow clubs to host a match without having to buy check weights. That said, if there was somebody in the area that had check weights, and brought them to a match, then weigh rifles! The NBRSA supplies check weights to the regional director for just that purpose. You don't have to weigh every match to keep the rifles in check.

Now, go the other way and consider a scale that doesn't weigh the check weights within the allowance of the rules. What do you do? I know the answer but am curious as to what y'all think.

Thank You Wilbur!!!
Very well put!!!

NO CHECK WEIGHTS HOW DO YOU PROVE IT"S OVER WEIGHT?!?!?!?!

Pete
Click to expand...
 
No horse in this race… if the targets used for this (all) competition(s) MUST BE CERTIFIED/STANDARDIZED… why aren't the scales, via check weights ?
 
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