Electronic Windflags???

[tiny68]

I am playing with the idea of building a set of electronic windflags that would allow me to monitor or track the direction/windspeed with time and feed into a PDA for a graphical display. I want this as a training tool to help teach me how to read flags better.

First is there any rule against such electronic flags? I have only shoot club matches. Second, would they have to be wireless or could you lay wires down across the range?

Thanks for your opinions, tiny

 

[eww1350]

The technology already exsist it is called a digital wireless weather station..can be bought at about $200... only problem is that NONE offer real time info on wind speed or direction..the fastest one available has a 2-6 second delay before it displays...and yes it is legal as long as it is below the target frame to benchtop level...

 

[bob harrison]

Jerry Hensler has several years experience with real-time electronic wind flags, and has utilized them in registered matches. Currently, I believe he is using wires from the transmitters to his receiver. Jerry has prossibly done, and is doing, more expermentation with electronic flags than anyone else. He is the one to answer your query,
Bob H.

 

[David Halblom]

It is legal ONLY

The technology already exsist it is called a digital wireless weather station..can be bought at about $200... only problem is that NONE offer real time info on wind speed or direction..the fastest one available has a 2-6 second delay before it displays...and yes it is legal as long as it is below the target frame to benchtop level...

in the NBRSA or in Heavy Bench (Unlimited) in the IBS

 

[tiny68]

Info

Thanks for the info. I found some transducers that will measure the wind speed with 1% accuracy from 0.4-100 mph and direction +/- 2 degrees. These operate like simple potentiometer with a 10-15 V input and I can collect data at any rate (up to 60 Hz). I can build the circuit to drive them and build a simple data logger to input them in a laptop. I have a copy of LabView software which will create about any type of graphic plot you can image. I guess I would like to be able to see the true magnitude/direction of what I am trying to read from the flags.

I could image putting a three multiple colored diodes (green/yellow/red) in the front of the scope for 3 flags at 100 yds that would indicate if wind/speed & direction were within a user defined limits for shoot/close/no shot. Might not be worth the effort, but as a rookie I know the wind is a big part of my groups and I am struggling to reduce group size when the conditions get twitchy.

Anyway, if I build something I'll post it and get refinement recommendations from you guys.

Thanks, Tiny

 

[M.D.Spencer]

I like the idea

Thomas Edison couldn't make the light bulb any better. It took GE to do that. Or something like that. Any way, just do IT! It's better to ask forgiveness than to ask anyone on here's permission.

Mark

 

[Cheechako]

Tiny

I know that Harold Vaughn played with the idea because I watched him shoot over some of his early electronic flags at least 15 to 20 years ago. I don't know if any of the stuff is in his book or not. Maybe somebody can look and see.

One very good shooter from CA also developed the concept to a point. I don't want to give his name since he may not want to talk about it. He may read your post and chime in.

As Mark said, just do it and let us know how it works.

And Mark, I thought it was Al Gore who perfected the light bulb.

Ray

 

[M.D.Spencer]

Yep

That and the internet.

 

[Don]

Thanks for the info. I found some transducers that will measure the wind speed with 1% accuracy from 0.4-100 mph and direction +/- 2 degrees. These operate like simple potentiometer with a 10-15 V input and I can collect data at any rate (up to 60 Hz). I can build the circuit to drive them and build a simple data logger to input them in a laptop. I have a copy of LabView software which will create about any type of graphic plot you can image. I guess I would like to be able to see the true magnitude/direction of what I am trying to read from the flags.

I could image putting a three multiple colored diodes (green/yellow/red) in the front of the scope for 3 flags at 100 yds that would indicate if wind/speed & direction were within a user defined limits for shoot/close/no shot. Might not be worth the effort, but as a rookie I know the wind is a big part of my groups and I am struggling to reduce group size when the conditions get twitchy.

Anyway, if I build something I'll post it and get refinement recommendations from you guys.

Thanks, Tiny

Tiny,

Unless you can develope a doplar radar system that monitors wind conditions both down range, and to both sides, in real time, full range of field, you will find it hard to come up with any system under $100k that can match the human mind/eye viewing a full field of flags, terrain, and mirage indications, with the capability of squeezing the trigger in less than a fraction of a second, at the proper time.

In all seriousness, go for it..........myself and several others have tried but I dont believe we have come anywheres near what Tony Boyer and his human mind/eye are capable of.

Ray and others are correct, a good start would be Vaughns writings on this subject and perhaps a search of "electronic windflags", as the topic has been discussed many times over the years.

One word of caution, for every hour spent planning, developing, fabricating, and testing an electronic wind analysis system (and there will be hundreds if not thousands of hours in making a successfull system), will be one less hour devoted to proven methods of accuracy enhancement.

So, unless you find true enjoyment in the experimentation process, at the sacrifice of competitive performance, than this quest will be your holy grail..............Don

 

[Charles E]

. . .One word of caution, for every hour spent planning, developing, fabricating, and testing an electronic wind analysis system (and there will be hundreds if not thousands of hours in making a successful system), will be one less hour devoted to proven methods of accuracy enhancement.

So, unless you find true enjoyment in the experimentation process, at the sacrifice of competitive performance, than this quest will be your holy grail..............Don

Pay close attention to these words. And remember, most experiments are a failure. The joy has to come from the doing. If the only joy for you is in success, you'll be a lot happier just practicing and improving. Other benchrest shooters are not stupid; the odds of your creating something new & improved are quite small.

 

[tiny68]

If the only joy for you is in success, you'll be a lot happier just practicing and improving. Other benchrest shooters are not stupid; the odds of your creating something new & improved are quite small.

And hence my problem - the closest range solid tables is limited access and is 45 minutes away and I can only get on it one Saturday a month. I can't commit to drive 2-3 hours each way to drive to the ranges were matches are held. I have to figure a better to maximize my limited shooting time. Yes, I need my own range or one I could drive to shoot several times a week. That is not the world I live in today. I grew up on a 160 acre farm. We had several hundred acres in other locations. Every pond dam became a backstop for a pickup-hood-range. I can't drop $100,000 for 30-50 acres of un-improved over-inflated land to build my own where I live. I am trying to find options to increase the trigger time, trust me.

I enjoy playing with things. I build sensors and the circuits all time at my work. I can even make this a class project for my students and it will be a good learning experience for them. I think innovation comes from thinking outside the box. Anything that can help us beginners out to reduce the learning curve for dealing with the wind has got to be good. I have shot a rifle that just laid down a 1 with an experience shooter and I only manage to shoot a 4 because I didn't understand how to read the flags and when to pull the trigger.

I would never imply that anyone in BR is stupid and I don't have a clue how you drew this from my discussions/questions.

Tiny

 

[goodgrouper]

Tiny,

By all means, keep on experimenting. If it weren't for experimenters, everyone would still be shooting 30-30's with iron sights. Yes, you might give up some "practice time" in your quest but I consider your sacrifice a favor to the rest of us involved in the sport.

You are going to fight an uphill battle as others have mentioned, but if you succeed, you might just update the only piece of the shooter's tools that has largely stagnated for over 100 years (minus a few slight upgrades in materials).

I've long held the belief that most shooter's frustrations with their shooting is a prime result of their inability to judge the wind based on what their flags were telling them (or not telling them) but the shooter blaming it on some other imaginary or less important problem. I'm not saying bench handling problems or equipment failures are not real. Lord knows I've faught those demons. I'm simply saying that some things get blamed for the bad group when it really was just the wind's trickery.

 

[Pete Wass]

I think it is difficult

to do much better than Gene's "Wind Probes" tm. for reading what one needs to with regard to the wind. The hard part is to keep track of the flag angles at the same time!

 

[caroby]

Experiment... Or lotta practice... Both probably!

Other benchrest shooters are not stupid; the odds of your creating something new & improved are quite small. Charles

Not try'n to speak for Charles....

He's say'n that MANY Benchrest shooters have mulled over "other" means of reading the wind, including some form of electronic assistance in concert with traditional flags.... Just the work involved is considerable...So..>>> Traditional flag reading and lottsa practice..!

Not say'n my shooting style, guns and loads are perfect. It's just that I KNOW it's beyond the muzzle where my agg's are REALLY being affected most..!

So I too have had LOTTA thoughts on better reading the wind....
Just not sure how to approch a new concept...So>>> Try'n to better read my flags >more consistently<.. Practice, practice, practice.............And so on...

Still Luther, Oklahoma would render Tony Boyer a Tylenol or two......................! Here you will need a 5 axis wind reading flag as well as a 5th demension wind read cause wind comes from here TOO...!

Still >>>experiment<<< ..... Good'n on you!

One thing in FOR SURE..........
>GOTTA< have a BENCHREST GUN no matter what though to do this work. IMOP "THE" most important part of the equation!

cale

 

[Jerry H]

I use speaker wire to connect my sensors to the bench meter on my “Smart Flag” system. The biggest problem, by far, is correctly weighting the system for the effect of the wind at a particular distance from the bench on the bullets impact at the target. You would be amazed how much easier a properly tuned gun can shoot in tough wind conditions. Many are fooling themselves believing the conditions are always responsible for the errant shot in a group.

 

[alinwa]

You would be amazed how much easier a properly tuned gun can shoot in tough wind conditions. Many are fooling themselves believing the conditions are always responsible for the errant shot in a group.

flippin' GOLD right thare!

al

 

[Engrbill]

Amen

I use speaker wire to connect my sensors to the bench meter on my “Smart Flag” system. The biggest problem, by far, is correctly weighting the system for the effect of the wind at a particular distance from the bench on the bullets impact at the target. You would be amazed how much easier a properly tuned gun can shoot in tough wind conditions. Many are fooling themselves believing the conditions are always responsible for the errant shot in a group.

Listen to Jerry's words. He has plenty of experience. -----Bill

 

[Charles E]

The "not stupid" comment.

A fair number of new or newer shooters believe they can use a technical edge to improve their shooting. Sometimes this takes the path of measuring bullet bearing surface, or ogive length -- generally, some measurement or sorting of existing components that will help. Whatever

Other times, it take the form of a new idea. Electronic wind flags. Or in my case, barrels under tension with a tensioning tube. I'll pass on the history of electronic wind flags. But it didn't take long to find out the notion of tensioning barrels was so old that there were expired patents.

So not a new idea. But I and a few others took up the cause again. We can make it work with heavy guns. Just this afternoon, I went out and fired 5-shot groups with using charges of 74 grains, 75 grains, 76 grains, 77 grains and 78 grains. This is a 1,000 yard rifle by the way. The groups were essentially the same size (small), and the same shape (3/4 bullet hole stacked vertical). In other words, you get the same groups as you go up & down in charge, and they're small.

This in a 75-pound rifle, using 3 inch tubing with about .6 wall thickness, but those dimensions aren't magic. What would be magic is to get the same results with thin-wall tubing in a 10.5 pound rifle. To date: sometimes. You haven't solved the problem until there is a recipe, and we don't have it.

You don't want to know how many years and dollars have gone into the quest, at the expense of becoming a better competitive shooter.

If we crack it, great. It will just be incorporated by all shooters, who will just go on as before, with a new technology. They'll spend no time & no money on the development. They knew there was something there (like with tuners), but only use proven systems. They're not stupid.

If we don't crack it, well we had fun. I'll take either result. If you will too, you're an experimenter. If your essentially a competitor, as the great organ professor at Oberlin said "That's terrible. Go practice."

 

[bryan]

Electronics

There is a company here in Raton that is knee deep in high tech military contracts. I've talked to one of the head engineers there and he told me a wireless real time system would be very easy with the technology they are using, but the cost would probably be out of range of the average man.
Maybe I could get the Boss interested in Benchrest.......................
Bryan