Electronic Triggers

Once again, until such time as this new rule change is published, it does NOT exist.

When it is published and we can fully understanding the wording, specifics and intent, then we can decide it's value. Like the 20 minute relay rule, countries can review the rule and determine it's place in running national, regional and local matches.

The WRABF is an worthwhile organization and is run by people but only the people have agendas.
 
To USA Shooters,

I have been informed by WRABF leadership that the vote on the agenda item to ban all electronics from air rifles was unanimous. While I did ask which items on their agenda, prior the 2013 World Cup, would affect air rifles, I failed to read the agenda in it's entirety and missed this agenda item. By missing the item, I could not poll match directors and shooters in order to establish a position for USARB. This meant that the USA delegate voted without our input, it was a personal opinion. This is unacceptable and I take full responsibility. For this, I apologize.

Now, a different vote may not have made any difference. In order to avoid this in the future, USARB will have a 3 member Rules Committee. This committee will be the ONLY voting representatives for rule changes for USARB and WRABF matters. The first 2 items for this committee to review are the 20 minute relay rule and the ban on all electronics in air rifles. A final item will be to review common ground and goals of USARB and the WRABF and make a determination regarding future affiliation. I am looking for volunteers for this assignment.
 
Regardless of unanimity wouldn't this be relatively difficult to enforce? Assuming there was an advantage couldn't somebody work up an electronic trigger or solenoid inside of an existing platform? Will people have to disassemble their guns and subject them to inspection or x-ray machine? Like Dan mentioned, it would make more sense to do something like say the trigger had to be attached to the rifle rather than to outright ban electronics.

I'm a sideline shooter so I guess I don't have a dog in this fight but the decision is still curious.
 
Further Reaching

Stephen has directed his post above to USA shooters only and I respect that, however as BRC is an International forum and the repercussions of the decision regarding the “Electronic trigger and electronics” is further reaching, I thought it only fair to show the members of this forum the relevant section as it was presented to the delegates:


11. Electronic trigger and electronics - does this have a place in the sport -
Currently both the WRABF and ERABSF state that electronic triggers can be used in air rifle classes.
The establishment of that rule has caused issues due to the ongoing of technologies that at present are growing exponentially. Electronics can aid some things, but many ways enhance or override the skills of the shooter.
These technologies include:
Air rifles with computer controlled regulators and firing systems that include alteration of muzzle velocity - http://www.daystate.com/mk4.htm
Electronic wind indicators, that indicate wind speed, wind direction temperature, barometric pressure, are wireless to use on a shooting range, etc - http://www.maplin.co.uk/black-usb-touchscreen-wireless-weather-forecaster-228825
http://www.skyview.co.uk/acatalog/wind_displays.html
Rifle scopes that include electronic reticles, computer control, wind indication systems - http://www.gizmag.com/trackingpoint-precision-guided-firearms-scopes-digital/25264/
http://www.darpa.mil/Our_Work/AEO/Programs/Advanced_Sighting_System_(One-Shot).aspx

Motion - completely remove the use of electronic triggers from Federation events – yes/no
Motion - keep the use of electronic triggers in the rules, but provide a rule that does not allow further use of electronics in competitions – yes/no :
Motion - to provide a statement that electronic in any form will not be allowed during competition in Federation events – yes/no :


My point being, if English was not your mother tongue, or the country for which you are delegate does not have an air rifle section (which is plentiful), which way would you have voted???

Brian
 
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Brian_K said:
Stephen has directed his post above to USA shooters only and I respect that, however as BRC is an International forum and the repercussions of the decision regarding the “Electronic trigger and electronics” is further reaching, I thought it only fair to show the members of this forum the relevant section as it was presented to the delegates:


11. Electronic trigger and electronics - does this have a place in the sport -
Currently both the WRABF and ERABSF state that electronic triggers can be used in air rifle classes.
The establishment of that rule has caused issues due to the ongoing of technologies that at present are growing exponentially. Electronics can aid some things, but many ways enhance or override the skills of the shooter.
These technologies include:
Air rifles with computer controlled regulators and firing systems that include alteration of muzzle velocity - http://www.daystate.com/mk4.htm
Electronic wind indicators, that indicate wind speed, wind direction temperature, barometric pressure, are wireless to use on a shooting range, etc - http://www.maplin.co.uk/black-usb-touchscreen-wireless-weather-forecaster-228825
http://www.skyview.co.uk/acatalog/wind_displays.html
Rifle scopes that include electronic reticles, computer control, wind indication systems - http://www.gizmag.com/trackingpoint-precision-guided-firearms-scopes-digital/25264/
http://www.darpa.mil/Our_Work/AEO/Programs/Advanced_Sighting_System_(One-Shot).aspx

Motion - completely remove the use of electronic triggers from Federation events – yes/no
Motion - keep the use of electronic triggers in the rules, but provide a rule that does not allow further use of electronics in competitions – yes/no :
Motion - to provide a statement that electronic in any form will not be allowed during competition in Federation events – yes/no :


My point being, if English was not your mother tongue, or the country for which you are delegate does not have an air rifle section (which is plentiful), which way would you have voted???

Brian
Click to expand...

So which motion passed? Some people are referring to "electronics" and others are talking about "electronic triggers".
 
DoctorBoudreau said:
So which motion passed? Some people are referring to "electronics" and others are talking about "electronic triggers".
Click to expand...

You do have a habit of asking good questions :D

A better one may have been, which of the three motions had a positive outcome for electronics in any fashion?.....don't you just love democracy?

Brian
 
Brian_K said:
You do have a habit of asking good questions :D

A better one may have been, which of the three motions had a positive outcome for electronics in any fashion?.....don't you just love democracy?

Brian
Click to expand...

None of them seem very positive to me :)
 
Brian,

Thank you for giving us a glimpse at the agenda item in question. I have heard from Craig and his vote was no but now that we see how this item was worded, there's no telling what his vote actually meant. What we do know is that the vote was NOT unanimous.
 
Brian_K said:
Motion - completely remove the use of electronic triggers from Federation events – yes/no
Motion - keep the use of electronic triggers in the rules, but provide a rule that does not allow further use of electronics in competitions – yes/no :
Motion - to provide a statement that electronic in any form will not be allowed during competition in Federation events – yes/no : [/I]


My point being, if English was not your mother tongue, or the country for which you are delegate does not have an air rifle section (which is plentiful), which way would you have voted???

Brian
Click to expand...

The following is my answer to Brian's question, ".....which way would you have voted?"

As most know, I am relatively new to the sport. I came up the ranks of the Production class in the United States and was fortunate enough to have been offered a FWB P70FT (in red I might add - the color I would have picked new in the box). I have been shooting HV for less than a year. Thus, my opinion on this issue comes without much in the way of history behind it concerning the beginnings and evolution of the sport. (So, please do not shoot the messenger! :eek:)

Given the 3 options above, were I there and voting I would have chosen motion #2. Why? Electronic triggers are not new. In fact, you do not have to spend a fortune to buy a gun with one. I have an air rifle in the back of my safe with an electronic trigger that does not shoot worth a hoot! It is so bad I would be ashamed to sell it without a full disclosure and substantial discount in price. Thus, why pass a rule that would retroactively ban something that exists? Rather, a new rule that limits the use of electronics (no whiz bang wind flags that guide your rifle on a WiFi mechanical rest, no 10 foot cable attached to your electronic trigger making it a rail gun as examples) would seem to make sense. However, if at some point in time rail guns become popular then maybe a rail gun class should be created. ;)

A humble opinion from a neophyte only.

Steve W.
 
Brian_K said:
You do have a habit of asking good questions :D

A better one may have been, which of the three motions had a positive outcome for electronics in any fashion?.....don't you just love democracy?

Brian
Click to expand...

Brain,
Thank you for showing me/us the wording on the proposal. It seems to me that, which choice gets rid of electronics quickest! Somebody promoted their Agenda, worded it so it could not fail ( an old politicians trick) and I'm sure is now quite delighted with their accomplishment. A pathetically crystal rail job in my opinion. Perhaps a more reasonable solution can be found in the States and with our cousins across the pond to use common sense and not act like Chicken Little in this matter.;)

MarkN
 
Straight from the horses....you pick which end after reading.

I dug out my 13 page copy of the Agenda from the WRABF/ERABSF meeting after getting a couple of phone calls and a pile of emails on the subject of rule changes today. I'm sorry, but I don't visit the forum very often anymore and wasn't aware of the percieved controversies until it was called to my attention.

There are 25 items, most with multiple motions, on those pages. I had instructions from Steve George to vote on exactly one of them, "no" to the 20 minute time limit. I abstained from that vote because it was tied in with several other options for reducing the time required to complete a World Championship/World Cup/ERABSF Championship match and reduce the total number of days it would take to run those matches that I didn't object to. If I recall correctly, all of the 20+ other delegates at the meeting voted for the reduction in time from 30 minutes to 20 minutes.

My notes show that I circled "no" to the first motion pertaining to electronic triggers that Brian K. posted above, "yes" to motion 2 and "no" to motion 3. The meeting started at 9pm after a 12 hour day of competition in 97 degree temps and was held in a room the size of a shoebox in the interior of a hotel with no AC. To be completely honest with you. I do not remember how I actually voted on the issue of electronic triggers. My HV rifle has a Dawson trigger on it that is so light it cannot be measured, so I have no reason to object to electronic triggers. I may have abstained from that vote as well, as I did many others without input from Steve. No matter what I voted, it would not have changed the outcome.

The bottom line is that unless you are planning to travel to Australia next year, Slovenia in 2017 or South Africa in 2019, NONE of the WRABF rules apply to you. Steve George is free to run USARB as he sees fit.

Todd Banks
 
Since pretty much all of this pertains directly to my gun......I'm gonna throw my opinion out there, too.

My electronic trigger.....when it was mounted to my gun in the conventional position pulled about 2oz. 2oz is pretty light......but I have felt other mechanical triggers that were much less. I can honestly say that it does not present an advantage over most other triggers that you would find on a benchrest gun.

My solenoid hammer does have some advantages.....but I'm not sure that these advantages are the competitive edge type of advantage. The original reason that I chose the solenoid was because it drastically simplified the gun......and because electronics is something I like. It turned out to be pretty efficient on air.....but that isn't really a competitive advantage, either. I have no computer to alter anything on the fly, and I use a standard type regulator.

I am currently running a remote trigger. It plugs into the bottom of the gun and can be set anywhere. I can honestly say that it does not afford any competitive advantage, either. I had absolutely no trouble pinching my 2oz trigger without disturbing the gun at all.

Now I will tell you the real reason I like what i have.......comfort.

I'm middle aged......but I got picked up by a tornado, thrown over a telephone pole, and through a garage when I was 23. I shattered my pelvis, got 5 commuted fractures in my right arm, many crushed vertebrae, broken legs, tons of finger fractures on both hands, a mangled knee, lots of broken ribs, and a ton of internal injuries and nerve damage.......blah, blah, blah. It's not something that most people know about me.

I cannot tell you how much nicer it is for me to shoot with an offset scope and a remote trigger pad. I can place myself in a nearly upright position and shoot for extended durations without arm and leg numbness, or debilitating back and neck pain.

I'm also able to load my gun without shifting positions due to the rear loading, swing breech design.

I believe these comfort enhancing items make a very positive difference in my enjoyment of this cool sport.

I believe that there are lots of others would appreciate them, too.

Mike
 
Renegade said:
The bottom line is that unless you are planning to travel to Australia next year, Slovenia in 2017 or South Africa in 2019, NONE of the WRABF rules apply to you.
Click to expand...

That about covers it.

michaelthomas said:
I am currently running a remote trigger. It plugs into the bottom of the gun and can be set anywhere. I can honestly say that it does not afford any competitive advantage, either. I had absolutely no trouble pinching my 2oz trigger without disturbing the gun at all.
Click to expand...

You may be pushing the envelope a little too far with that one Mike, regardless of whether the remote is electronically or mechanically operated. I can’t find any direct rule covering this, but it is pretty much frowned upon.

I would say if you can fire the rifle in the traditional manner (finger on trigger), then that would be preferred. If you cannot, for reason of some disability, then a special dispensation may be required from the USARB.

The above is just my personnel opinion.

Brian
 
JoeWillie said:
Brain,
Thank you for showing me/us the wording on the proposal. It seems to me that, which choice gets rid of electronics quickest! Somebody promoted their Agenda, worded it so it could not fail ( an old politicians trick) and I'm sure is now quite delighted with their accomplishment. A pathetically crystal rail job in my opinion. Perhaps a more reasonable solution can be found in the States and with our cousins across the pond to use common sense and not act like Chicken Little in this matter.;)

MarkN
Click to expand...

Mark,

While I don’t disagree with your sentiments, I still think the WRABF is the way to go with regards getting everyone around the world to be shooting at the same target using the same rules, therefore giving us all some common ground for competition.

The problem, and it’s been apparent for some time, is in its quest to get bigger and put on larger and larger events, with the aim of getting hundreds of shooters attending. The rulebook (and indeed classes of events) is having to be changed to accommodate this. Up to a point that’s fine; I fully understand the reasoning behind it (although I may not agree with how the changes are achieved).

But we are now getting to the situation where the WRABF rules are starting to be at odds with shooters from club up to national event level. Hopefully the WRABF/ERABSF will take some note of the rank and file and curb their enthusiasm slightly. In the main they have done a great job, but at this point I think a few years of stabilization and reflection wouldn’t go amiss.

Brian
 
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Todd,

Thank you for your input, it is much appreciated.

Everything follows my memory of that time frame. The agenda was long and not meant to be easy to understand. This is why I asked what was pertaining to air rifles, other than the 20 minute rule. The answer lead me astray. No excuse, I should have read the all the items more carefully.

The point about WRABF rules NOT applying to us in the USA is critical at this junction. If a USA shooter does want to attend a WRABF event, qualifying is NOT necessary, the 2013 World Cup is a perfect example of this. Those that travel will simply need to follow their rules. While I have always been a strong supporter of the USARB affiliation with the WRABF, I am beginning to question the point of the relationship.

To be clear, my opinion is not about the organization but about the leadership that creates an this type of disappointing situation. Now, believe me, their leadership has an incredibly tough job, I know first hand. There is no way you can make everyone happy. However, it makes no more sense for "Steve George is free to run USARB as he sees fit." than for 'fill in the blank' is free to run WRABF as he sees fit. I spend a great deal of time talking with match directors and shooters to ensure that their opinions are heard. It still does not make things perfect, there are always going to be disagreements about rules but you try and do the best you can.

USARB has created our own rifle classes to best serve the diversity of our shooters. Very few match directors favor the 20 minute rule. Now electronics in air rifle may be the next area where we need to branch out. When USARB was formed, we needed the structure of the WRABF. We all need to consider if that time has passed.
 
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sgeorge said:
While I have always been a strong supporter of the USARB affiliation with the WRABF, I am beginning to question the point of the relationship.
Click to expand...

Stephen,

While I have sympathy with your predicament, please don’t throw out the baby with the bathwater and go solely your own way. We (the rest of the World) like shooting with you guys, I would hate to see you withdraw within your own borders and start shooting none internationally recognised classes solely.

To me there is a reasonable and simple solution to the rules problem. Let’s take the time limit as an example. This is how the rule presently stands:


D.3 Time Limits

Score matches - the time limit will be 30 minutes. There shall be no exception to the requirement for all competitors to complete their string of fire within the time allowed.

Add to this rule the following:

At World Championships, European Championships and World Cups the time limit will be reduced to 20 minutes.

Now apply that philosophy to the other 30+ pages of rules and we have a working rulebook that is acceptable to the vast majority.

It’s not rocket science.

Brian
 
Brian.....I believe there are others that agree with your feeling about the remote trigger.

My curiosity is this.......what exactly about it gives you that uneasy feeling?

Do you believe there is a competitive advantage to it?

Or is it just that it is unconventional? Or maybe it's both?

I'm not looking to be argumentative.......more thought provoking than anything.

I understand the knee jerk reaction.......I felt it myself. But once you've gotten past that part......what is it that causes the frown?

I have a few friends of mine that are paralyzed from the waist down. They drive vehicles that have hand controls. The first response that every person makes when they see the hand controls for the first time is, "Man.....that looks unsafe." Clearly it is not unsafe......they both have impeccable driving records. It's just that it looks so foreign to everyone that has only understood a car to be operated with a typical wheel and pedals. It goes even further to thoughts of feet being superior mechanisms to control speed and braking......but nobody I know can perform any other sort of other task that involves delicacy or dexterity better with their feet.

If the car were to be invented today......I rather doubt that the control configuration would look anything like what we are accustomed to.

Guns are a very similar endeavor. They have looked the same......and have been fired by a trigger mechanism from the same location for a very long time.

Since I have not personally noted any increase in my scores that are directly attributable to the trigger being operated from an unconventional position......my logical perspective leads me to believe that the unfavorable reaction that some people have is purely an emotional one that stems from something straying too far from the accepted norm.

I don't know.....this is just my opinion as well. Please understand that if we were speaking face to face about this.....my body language and voice inflection would show no sarcasm or ill will. I say this because I have a tendency to write in a somewhat blunt and emotionless style that is often misinterpreted. :(:(:(:(:(

Mike
 
Mike,

No offence taken (skin like a Rhino ). You raise some good points and I’m going to give it some thought before replying.

But just one question, do you need to use this activation system because of some disability or have you manufactured it as some sort of interesting experiment?

Brian
 
Brian,

It's not about throwing out the baby with the bathwater, it's about the baby who grows up and leaves home. We love shooting with the rest of the world. That never has to change. Our website, usairriflebenchrest.com, gets more hits from international countries than from the USA.

I don't see this as only a rules problem. The question that becomes the struggle is, what do we lose by NOT being affiliated. We shoot the same target at the same distance. LV and HV continue to be "international" classes. We don't have to qualify to shoot in a WRABF event. Those wanting to travel will need to be familiar with their rules. We don't need 30 pages to outline a set of rules, ours are simple, easy to understand rules. We have great match directors that use good judgement at every turn. The WRABF is more focused on rimfire, we are just an afterthought. We do need to look toward the future and ask if their goals and struggles will match ours.
 
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