Electronic Triggers

S

sgeorge

Guest
It has come to my attention that the WRABF has a recent rule change that will make electronic triggers illegal.

This rule change is not yet published but will be prior to the 2015 World Championships. Since it is not published, it is not in effect here in the United States. When it is published and in effect, it is the intention of USARB to ask sanctioned match directors and shooters to determine whether or not we should adopt this rule.

While the WRABF rules are the cornerstones, USARB has rifle classes that are not compliant with the international rules. This could be yet another example.
 
The decision was taken at the WRABF AGM in Plzen(2013). I speak under correction that it means that the new rule is effective from the time and date of acceptance. The rule is applicable according to my understanding on all WRABF events.
If a country/ club wants to use electronic triggers it is their decision. The same applies for the 20 minute relay rule. Any club/country can still shoot 30 minutes, however all WRABF events will be 20 minutes.

Saying this, on a personal note I think all events should be shot by applying the exact WRABF rules.
Bill C/ Carl B do you agree with me?
 
It's a hard one Billy, you are correct it was voted in Plzen to ban all electronics under WRABF rules by World Delegates, some countries may adopt this and all the other new rules straight away, some in a transation. In Australia for example we are working towards the new rules including the 20 minute time limit from 2015. Of course at The WRABF World Championships 2015 all new rules will be in force and those rules will be on our WRABF website in the near future, as we are just ironing out a few of the techinacal issue before they are published.

In saying that locally Countries can apply our rules or use their own rules it is really up to them but when they come to the World Stage it is WRABF rules.
 
As Steven said, we are so lucky here in the U.S. because of having Classes being contested that are already outside of the WRABF LV/HV regulations, and thus could have guns run by electronics simply compete in either the OPEN or UNLIMITED Classes, or could even add a totally different Class strictly for guns with Electronics.

Not that it matters, but I for one would think that both the LV and HV Classes should remain unadulterated and still follow the WRABF Rulebook to the letter, but then allow electronics in any of the other Classes if so desired.

Now, Brian K should take heed of this and decide what he's going to do about the BIPM's acceptance or rejection of their use in his Postal Matches.

Dave Shattuck
 
Dave Shattuck said:
As Steven said, we are so lucky here in the U.S. because of having Classes being contested that are already outside of the WRABF LV/HV regulations, and thus could have guns run by electronics simply compete in either the OPEN or UNLIMITED Classes, or could even add a totally different Class strictly for guns with Electronics.

Not that it matters, but I for one would think that both the LV and HV Classes should remain unadulterated and still follow the WRABF Rulebook to the letter, but then allow electronics in any of the other Classes if so desired.

Now, Brian K should take heed of this and decide what he's going to do about the BIPM's acceptance or rejection of their use in his Postal Matches.

Dave Shattuck
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Hi Dave,

I’m not fully aware of what all the WRABF changes are, to the best of my knowledge they haven’t been published yet, hence any discussion on the topic is based on hearsay.

However, as far as electronic triggers and detail time goes, presently I see no reason for change - electronic triggers are allowed and the detail time is set at 30 minutes (maximum).

The BIPM accepts scores from a number of organisations around the world, several of those use the 30 minute detail rule and also accept electronic triggers.

Changes in rules within the various organisations is certainly something to monitor. If it’s the will of the majority to accept some/all/none of these, then I would be happy to do so.

Brian
 
Brian,

You are correct, this has not been published but this rule change has been confirmed by those within WRABF and is not hearsay.

We believe our affiliation with WRABF benefits all USA shooters and should allow for an open dialog. Our association with the WRABF is long standing and should be a relationship of mutual respect. We are hopeful that future rule changes, such as this one, do not cause the embarrassment that this one has.
 
sgeorge said:
Brian,

You are correct, this has not been published but this rule change has been confirmed by those within WRABF and is not hearsay.

We believe our affiliation with WRABF benefits all USA shooters and should allow for an open dialog. Our association with the WRABF is long standing and should be a relationship of mutual respect. We are hopeful that future rule changes, such as this one, do not cause the embarrassment that this one has.
Click to expand...
Stephen,

Please don’t misunderstand me, I’m sure the changes pointed out will come about and have been voted for by the country delegates. Nevertheless those changes haven’t been published or the rulebook changed, until that happens the rules as presently printed stand.

Not sure what you mean by embarrassment, if it refers to the amount of time to have the changes implemented, or at least the minutes of the AGM published so all can see what the changes will be and therefore make preparations should they wish, then I see your point.

Let me make my position clear, I have nothing against the WRABF, it’s target and for the most part it’s rules. In fact (despite popular opinion) I am a supporter of much of the aims of the organisation.

The point where we differ is the WRABF runs one competition every four years, the ERABSF runs one competition every four years. You, I and many others run postal/H2H competitions on a monthly/ bi monthly basis, the requirements for these matches therefore differs. I (BIPM) see no need to reduce the detail time down from 30 minutes to 20 for ten guys holding a match at their local club (for example), however that is at the discretion of the match director.

But as I said previously, I’m happy to go along with the majority.

Brian
 
Brian,

No argument, until it is spelled out and "ironing out a few of the techinacal issue", the existing rules are in place. However, discussing this rule change prematurely
is not in the spirit of our relationship with the WRABF.

My embarrassment has nothing to do with delays to publish or other petty administrative details. I hope my point is clear to those involved and hopefully they know, now, my patience for this sort of thing has limits.

To be clear, USARB values it'e affiliation with the WRABF. Nevertheless, this and other recent events has caused me to examine what this relationship should look like in the future.
 
Brian,

As I've made clear before, my view on the subject of time is that when competing at the club, local, or even national level, unless the discipline or organization with whom we are trying to affiliate the results of those scores with says otherwise, I'm all in favor of, and use, a 30 minute clock even though it's very rare for any of us to run much beyond 20 minutes. However, when the conditions get a little tough, that extra 10 minutes can seem like a God send, even though they still seem to fly by.

Dave Shattuck
 
Stephen,

Obviously something going on I know nothing about…..good luck.

Dave,

Exactly, due to time constrains at a couple of matches last year in the UK we shot 20 minute details, no problem. But I’d rather give MD’s the option, other than imposing a rule on them that may not suit their circumstances.

Brian
 
What was the rationale behind banning electronics?

I was reading the posts of Mike Niksch with interest - his design seems to shoot great and be a good application of electronics... now to read that a gun like his would not be allowed to shoot WRABF matches. Just curious.
 
“What was the rationale behind banning electronics?”

Good question. I’m not sure how the WRABF came to their conclusions. In the UK we tested the Daystate brand of air rifles (in fact my .177 Daystate MK IV IS). It was found that while the rifle shot very well, no perceivable benefit could found over the testers EV2.

In conclusion, it was felt inappropriate to essentially ban one manufacturers product due to a perceived advantage (which in reality proved not to be the case).

Electronic triggers are allowed for use within the UKBR22 postal competitions, no one, to the best of my knowledge, uses them.

Brian
 
I can't see the advantage to the sport by ruling out electronic guns. I can understand banning remote triggers that allow one to fire the gun without even touching the gun but a trigger on the gun whether mechanical or electronic makes no difference.
How do you define an electronic gun? What if I have a digital air gauge, does that make my gun electronic?
I see similar mindsets in other areas as well. There is an art association in my state that won't allow new applicants that use digital cameras. Why, because the association members that make the rules know that 99% of all new photographers applying shoot digital and it is their way of keeping out the competition. The hypocrisy of it all is that 99% of the members already shoot digital cameras.
I don't like the idea of limiting participation to such a small hobby as ours and I don't like the stifling of new technology.
Dan
 
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The only reason I would would be against the use of electronics, is if Mike (who I obviously don’t know personally), worked for the NASA Jet Propulsion facility and used electronic components (offering some advantage) that weren’t commercially available. Other than that, I admire him for his ingenuity and wish him all the best.

Presently, as things stand, to rule out a manufacturer and sponsor of such events as the one that has and will take part in Arizona, is foolhardy.

Brian
 
Every individual component in my particular system could have been easily acquired by anyone 30 years ago.....lol. Heck, when I was a kid......Radio Shack used to have all of this stuff in stock. Now they just have a few drawers of components, and a store full of cell phones.:(

The irritating part to me is that the WRABF is apparently going to spring the new rules (whatever they may be) on us with no pre-warning .....and they will then be instantly in force upon "publication". That's just bush-league.

Rules, rulebooks, and adjustments to them, should be a calendar year event.....at the very minimum. 2014 is well underway......if there is going to be changes to the rules, they should have been posted well in advance.......with them becoming effective the following calendar year (2015).

Mike
 
WRABF Rules

Gentlemen, I am away all this week so wont be on the net that often and do not have my notes with me, so understand i will summarise and go on memory with this answer.The rules voted on by delegates in Plzen late last year were set for anumber of year at least till 2019 excepting any technical or typo issues that may arise that the Ec can alter. The rules ALL OF THEM are voted in by majority decisions by all country delegates. those delegtes were all issued the items for the meeting well in advance so they could be prepared for the votes. The sole USA delegate is now Craig Young and he gets assistance with Air through Stephen George and Todd Banks as far as i now presently.

Now in regards to this question why, again going on memory, it was a general feeling and concern that MOST delegates did not want electronic systems taking over the human element and nature of the sport. In other words we owat to get to a stage where someone might just click a mouse or a remote like a video game at the WRABF if you get what i mean.

As i have said a few times now each counry can shoot and have what rules they like but when it comes to Wrabf World Championships and World Cups & Erabsf European Championships these new rules will be used.

We hope to have new rules up on our website www.wrabf.com in the next month or so which will be about 18 months before the 2015 World Championships in Brisbane.

Hopfully that answers the question as to why and how the decision to change the rule happened.
 
I've owned a Daystate with an Electronic trigger and it certainly was not as competitive as my current guns. I have no problem with Electronic Triggers sans possibly someone using an IPhone to shoot the gun lol. I do not under stand the logic/ fear in banning them as I've not heard of any gun so equipped dominating any aspect of this game.

I have participated in several other forms of competition where the Rules Police try to govern every action the members take and in EVERY single case it was unhealthy for the Members and the Sport. It always led to a decline in members and participation. With one show of hands a manufacturer was eliminated from the Sport! Who benefits???

When you stymie the innovators with nonsensical rules and changes you stymie the Sport with predictable results. Hopefully here and with the International Postal competition reasonable heads will prevail and less exclusionary decisions and more vision to the future needs and Health of our Sport will prevail.

In order for a new idea to fully develop with Airguns it must be allowed to compete in the LV and HV classes. There just is not the demand in other classes to justify the effort and expense of development even on a small scale.

Lastly,
Thanks to all you Match Directors and Steve George and Brian K for all your selfless time and efforts to promote our Sport and give us a venue to enjoy it! Without all of you it would not get done!

MarkN:cool:
 
You are entitled to your opinion, as stated the majority of delegates are also entitled to theirs, for the record i do not vote as President, so dont shoot the messenger.
 
Bill,

I certainly did not mean to criticize you in any way. I was just pointing out the obvious that "a Camel is a Horse designed by Committee".lol

The Very Best to you and all in the Land Of OZ!

MarkN;)
 
I have a Daystate that I shoot in bench rest

and I resent the rules change. the difference in action between it and my well set up USFT is minimal.
 
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