Electrics, Electronics and ... what if?

H

Harry Fuller

Guest
I'm sure I would not be the only one who has been, did, or is, fiddling with permanent magnetic strikers.

In a nutshell ... a permanent magnetic field is understood to be produced by an electric charge in motion and basically seem to result from electrons within the atoms of the iron, or other relevant material, characteristically spinning uniformly in the same direction.

Under present LV/HV rules in USARB etc., one would presume anything involving electric charges or specified electron behaviour used to advantage in my striker viz., a permanent magnet, would be disallowed. ... yes or no? Harry.
 
Harry,

Such an interpretation of the rules would disallow anything containing an electron......since all matter contains "moving" electrons. Lets hope the sanctioning bodies are not looking to completely eliminate the use of anything containing an electron. :D The sport would surely suffer a dramatic decline. :eek:

Electricity is the exchange of electrons.

Exchange does not take place with a permanent magnet, coil spring, or a piece of wood for that matter. A wooden stick contains moving electrons......but swinging the stick at a valve stem, transferring it's energy, and causing the valve to open will not make the transferred force electric in nature.

Mike
 
Thank's Harry & Mike

Bet There(USARBR) are Reading up on Electrics now!!!
Newtrons,Protrons,Morerons and Fig Newtons (Moe Howard).....Franky
 
michaelthomas said:
Harry,
Mike,
One thing the permanent magnet and the electric current-through-a-wire have in common, is that both induce magnetic fields. From a practical viewpoint the result is different only in that the latter can be activated at will. The electromagnet/ solenoid is a switch flicked slave. The lines of demarcation seem somewhat blurred, at least in my mind.
My cobalt magnets require mechanical separation if used in one way; but in combination with a separate closing force for action "A", and finely balanced forces for "B", will do something equally important in the total of the dynamics. ...

But in a rules debate I would probably side with future permanent magnet striker/ hammer/ valve systems, that may pop up (doubtful), as being in the "allowed" category as for "mechanical systems". ... There! I can now get on with solving the "balanced equation", or perhaps someone will do it for me.

The organization within your stick striker precludes it from having an overt magnetic field as we attribute to either type of magnet; so it cannot function as a magnet as we know it even though its electrons are orbiting as you say.

Thanks Mike; I'll leave it there for perhaps others to ponder, though it seems it's a topic almost devoid of interest .... Best regards, Harry.
Click to expand...
 
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Electronics revisited

You know folks nobody and I mean nobody would be giving a rats behind about this subject if he was not perceived as some kind of threat.
He has made the better mousetrap people. Get over it! You should be jumping up and down as it is the first real advancement in air rifle function/accuracy in decades. This advancement was not achieved by any major air gun manufacturer world wide with tons of research and support systems but one guy in his garage who knew nothing about air rifles or their function.......... He wasn't even a shooter.
It's the quint essential American success story and you are beating him to death making him define and defend electrons.

Are you interested in promoting accuracy or defining the meaning of "is"???
We have some smart folks on our new board and it is my hope that sanity will prevail concerning new rules governing this advancement in our sport.

I would wager if he was shooting 243's with 8 X's he could be running an extension cord from his house to the bench and nobody would even flinch.

Frank
 
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Harry,

Not being familiar with your design puts me at a disadvantage but the solenoid design requires a battery for current, cobalt magnets, as a rare earth type has a permanent magnetic field. Using this approach to open a valve is what Mike is doing in his mechanical version, which we believe is legal in LV and HV.

Frank,

Your last sentence sums up the fear but remember, the WRABF had this as an agenda item and voted upon last summer. The WRABF had no knowledge of new designs in this country, at that time. It was a knee jerk reaction to a "what if" proposition, that is just now, by coincidence, playing itself out. That the design is performing as it is, allows those on that side of the argument to say, "I told you so." Have we forgotten that the shooter plays a part in these results, especially outdoors?
 
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shadowalker said:
I would wager if he was shooting 243's with 8 X's he could be running an extension cord from his house to the bench and nobody would even flinch.

Frank
Click to expand...

You do make a good point Frank. Mike may well be a victim of his own success, both as a designer/builder of air rifles and as a shooter.

Time will tell.

Brian
 
shadowalker said:
You know folks nobody and I mean nobody would be giving a rats behind about this subject if he was not perceived as some kind of threat.
He has made the better mousetrap people. Get over it! You should be jumping up and down as it is the first real advancement in air rifle function/accuracy in decades. This advancement was not achieved by any major air gun manufacturer world wide with tons of research and support systems but one guy in his garage who knew nothing about air rifles or their function.......... He wasn't even a shooter.
It's the quint essential American success story and you are beating him to death making him define and defend electrons.

Are you interested in promoting accuracy or defining the meaning of "is"???
We have some smart folks on our new board and it is my hope that sanity will prevail concerning new rules governing this advancement in our sport.

I would wager if he was shooting 243's with 8 X's he could be running an extension cord from his house to the bench and nobody would even flinch.

Frank
Click to expand...

Frank,

Since a few want to keep revisiting this topic on electronics, thought you all might like to revisit a thread. Didn't see your input there, Frank :)

http://benchrest.com/showthread.php?88845-USA-Hybrid-Class

Regards,
Joe
 
Frank,

Historically the idea of electro-magnetic solenoid activated/capacitor controlled strikers/hammers has been discussed/ researched on and off for a very long time.
You may recognize the theme in this reference which also discusses the potential temperature shift phenomenon:

Quoting Mike Barna/ Pinzgauer from 11 years ago, 2003:

"The valve is opened conventionally by the momentum of a heavy solenoid armature/hammer striking it and knocking it open just like a normal PCP or CO2 gun. The magnetic field is the spring. The only variable is how hard the hammer/solenoid armature hits the valve stem. That variable is controlled by the force of the magnetic field that moves the armature and the speed of the field's rise. Those electron flow issues are influenced by the number of electrons stored at a given voltage in the capacitor."

http://www.network54.com/Forum/7953...ith+feedback+-+or+I+couldn't+sleep+right+now-

And quote: ..."Charging and firing of the capacitor circuit into the solenoid coil would be managed by a microprocessor that uses input from air reservoir pressure and ambient temperature as well as feedback from an LED based photo optical chronograph built right into the barrel shroud."

As you would know, Daystate too have been working it over all this century.

Michael has apparently independently put together a package that integrates many things in a way that favours precision shooting and in which the whole has risen above the separate parts. ... Not to be discounted, Michael's own shooting skills have obviously rocketed up the learning curve, as indicated by his scores in comparison with others' shooting the same rifle.

Joe and his team seem to have the domestic rules' compromise well under control to allow for rational progress. The baby and bathwater thing is always a fine balancing act.

Steve.
I wasn't aware that Mike was using permanent magnets so disregard my reference to it being a "doubtful" future venture. My OZ is far from the AG centroid :-( .
My own interest was in combining the momentum generated by a force field in a permanent magnet striker with a balanced metal spring stopper; or conversely, a conventional spring driven hammer rejected by like pole magnetic stoppers. The purpose was relating more to negating hammer bounce and air waste than in valve opening. I had also thought that conventional triggers, permanent magnets or metal springs would initiate action perhaps faster than solenoid systems for reduced lock time. I remember Scott Heath (electrical engineer) suggesting that to be so.

Mike.
I am wishing you well and encouraging you in every way with your venture and am very impressed with the way you have adjusted to your Board's current rules' decision. ... Your USA Hybrid Class may be seen as the Formula One of AGunning . ... Best regards, Harry.
 
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Harry,

This is the link to the original build, http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=50414.0

Think the first generation regulator was added after that thread.

USA Hybrid class was a notion to put all of this "cutting edge" stuff in one place. It was clear that many shooters would not be comfortable with the change that was and now is, coming. Change is tough for some to accept, even more difficult when it is not easily understood. USARB is doing well by moving slowly to better understand what the long term implications will be.

I think the notion of an "unfair" advantage is highly overrated but opinions differ. We need intelligent discussion to find common ground, so progress is not hindered, while effects to benchrest are measured. 20 years from now, new shooters will be involved and they will better understand the technology that is available. They have the right to determine the fate of this game, without having 20 years of someone else's ignorance to undue. By then, the technology gap might represent Formula One cars as compared to the horse.
 
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I may have a simple mind and way of thinking but to me electronic means it has wiring, a supply source for volts and amps, diodes, resistors, capacitors and the like. I do like the idea of being connected to a world organisation but if or when an air gun that has none of the above mentioned items but includes a magnet is banned, I'm out.
 
Chip,

No, no, we do not want you out. That is not where things are now. The rare earth magnet versions should be legal in LV and HV and currently hold the records on the website.
 
sgeorge said:
Harry,

This is the link to the original build, http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=50414.0

sgeorge said:
Harry,

This is the link to the original build, http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=50414.0

.
Click to expand...

Steve.
I haven't joined the GTA so, until I do, I can't open the reference you provided.
But I have gone back over Mike's contributions here to late last year. It would seem that his electronic system is pretty much the same as in the indicated Mike Barna/ Pinzgauer quotes above from 2003 (minus the pressure, temp, and on-board chrono feedback). I didn't find reference to permanent magnets though.

Most international sports organizations seem to allow for rules involving tech changes to evolve at a pace that suits the majority of members; cycles, swim suits, race cars are diverse examples.
In the shooting sports new classes are established to accommodate change - calibres, iron sights, bipods, machine rests, rail guns, trigger systems etc., now a Hybrid AG USA class.

New tech always brings critical focus. I seem to recall Russian rapid fire pistols with low barrels aligned to the centre mass of the fist (to reduce muzzle jump) being excluded from International competition at one time. Such decisions tend to make for stability in the short term, and as you suggest, evolution in the longer term.

Critical competitive mass may be lost OR gained by the stimulus of real OR imagined advantages . ... I recall the panic scramble by the US based America's Cup boffins to force the issue with the OZ Ben Lexan's winged keel yacht - the OZ boat won both legal and race challenges, following which evolution of rules and tech went feral. Huge international interest was generated and a mouldy old race blossomed internationally. Last I heard USA won back the race with a carbon hulled cat skippered by an Aussie with a Brit tactician an international crew and with only one lone American on board.

So, yes 20, years from now the face of AGBR in USA may be very different and my guess is that - given the cool heads of your present Board - it will have happened without too many bumps in the road and a gain, not loss, of critical mass.
Their representation at the International level will also have allowed for equal opportunity with other nations to initiate and debate for changes and to the mutual advantage of all. ...
Thanks all for the discussion and engagement ... Kind regards, Harry.
Click to expand...
 
Harry,

Good luck reading the build thread on GTA, it is a bunch of pages and spans about 10 months. Little reference to the rare earth magnet design, being a little more secretive this time to stay under the radar. I believe some shooting will be done with the improved version in Texas coming up.

As usual, you make excellent points. All we can do now is wait and see.
 
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