Does this Sako extractor installtion on the 700 look like it was done correctly ?

  • Thread starter myshootinstinks
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myshootinstinks said:
Has anyone here ever actually had the standard 700 extractor fail? I sure haven't and am not convinced of any benefit to replacing it.
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Yes. It's not that big of a deal to replace the newer rivetless ones though. It could even be done at the range. The riveted ones can be a little more of a challenge and is probably a job best left to a gunsmith or apretty handy "tinkerer" with some patience. Worst case is the front of the bolt nose breaks out. No easy or cheap fix for that short of a Sako type, but it can be done. The nose can be welded back up and recut for the Rem extractor or a new bolt can be bought and then fitted to the action.--Mike Ezell
 
myshootinstinks said:
Has anyone here ever actually had the standard 700 extractor fail? I sure haven't and am not convinced of any benefit to replacing it.
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Yes, I have. However, as for replacing one, I can't see any reason to do so until it fails.

Personally I do not like the Rem extractor over a sako extractor, but, if it works, why fix it. I differ in opinion about the safety concerns, but I also don't put them in Remington actions. There's a big difference between a Remington action, and a custom action with a Remington style bolt face. Most of all, it's the depth of the receiver ring and raceways. If that is a longer run, there is no opening at the raceway like there would be in a remington action. So, a sako extractor has no way to get sent out through the raceway. Of course, all this is meaningless unless you seriously misload the ammo and go way way over pressure. At that point, you're asking for trouble even if there is no extractor issues.
 
myshootinstinks said:
Has anyone here ever actually had the standard 700 extractor fail? I sure haven't and am not convinced of any benefit to replacing it.
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In 40 years of gunsmithing I have seen a few 700 extractors that required replacing... and after a new 700 extractor was fitted I never saw them again... it is a rare instance when an extractor fails and it certainly is not a good reason to alter the bolt... I have also seen bolts altered for the Sako extractor fail... it can happen with any rifle.. In have seen Model 70's and Mauser 98's fail and others... and it's usually fairly rare in all of them and is corrected by replacing the faulty part...
 
4Mesh said:
Most of all, it's the depth of the receiver ring and raceways. If that is a longer run, there is no opening at the raceway like there would be in a remington action. So, a sako extractor has no way to get sent out through the raceway.
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I don't understand what you're referring to here. Do you mind explaining?--Mike
 
I neither condone nor condemn Sako extractors on Remingtons but subscibe to the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" theory with this subject. I can certainly see how the sytem is compromised by one, but have seen a case rupture in a Remington with a Sako extractor where the gun still performed as it was designed to and the extractor was contained by the bolt nose expanding to the ID of the barrel counterbore. A smidge more powder may have been all it took for the extractor to launch, but it didn't. The case did rupture at the extractor and the primer pocket became a LR pocket instead of a SR. The case had a serious belt and filled the boltface.The barrel had to be removed and the bolt beaten out of the action. Regardless, if you build a big enough bomb, the system will fail with or without the Sako extractor. It takes a major screw up to get that much pressure and at that point, ALL bets are off.--Mike Ezell
 
Dennis Sorensen said:
..............When brass is not supported it easily deforms and ruptures. Extractor cut outs as the Sako conversion done on 700 actions do not support brass. They create a severe weakness in the gas handling abilities of the 700.
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I vehemently agree with this and will add that not every failure is due to simple stupid overloads.....

I've seen cases ruptured from bore obstructions, from grabbing the wrong loaded round, even from inadvertantly grabbing the wrong bullet.

IMO it's hard to be "too safe" and this is one of the reasons I recommend handloaders start their learning using a rem700. It's just a beastly strong, safe and well designed action.

As it sets.....

al
 
mwezell said:
I don't understand what you're referring to here. Do you mind explaining?--Mike
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In the actions I make for my own use, A: The bolt lugs are way longer. B: The area where the bolt lug travels and the amount of material behind that is significantly greater. (Longer). I'm guessing but I bet I put an additional 5/8" or more, maybe even 3/4" more, behind the receiver lug. In a Remington, the one receiver lug has virtually nothing behind it. Therefore, there is a place for the sako extractor to go if pressure causes a catastrophic failure of a case head. In mine, there is no place for it to go. C: While I have never seen a custom action with lugs the size of the ones I make, they are all bigger than the 7/16" ones on a Remington. Again, the more of that material you have, the less the chance there is an opening for the SE to pass out the raceway.

Just look inside a Remington receiver some time and when you see what's behind the receiver lugs, you'll see what I mean.
 
To be more clear. In my actions, the lower receiver lug has 6.5" of solid, uninterrupted material behind it. In a Remington, that's about .350". (guessing, but, more or less). The lower lug is where the extractor is when the gun goes bang.
 
Regurgitating:

Sako extractors in a twin lug, 90* turn bolt action are a bad idea. If a case sneezes your assurances of safe dispersion of gasses and debris goes to zero. I've had the misfortune of seeing this 2nd hand. Last spring a customer asked me to chamber a 700 action fitted with an aftermarket bolt. The bolt was set up for the sako. A case let go and he was rewarded with emergency eye surgery. They saved his eye.

To emphasize:

A 1/4" incision was made under his cornea and a pair of forceps were inserted into the eye to remove debris that had gone through the lens/pupil and embedded itself against the back of the eye. His description of the event was pretty mild. . .right up to where he could feel them tugging at the back of his eye ball.

If that's not motivation enough to shy away from these things then God bless and I wish you the best.

Buy the gun, toss the bolt, and order a new one. That's my advise. $100 bucks at PTG is less than any insurance deductible that I know of.

Chad
 
Ask Pat Byrne what happens when a Sako extractor blows down the raceway even for a RH shooter. A M16 extractor is a different deal. As N Chad says, a Kiff bolt is cheap insurance.
Butch
 
Don't forget guys, there wasn't anything wrong with Remington extractors. Nobody said there was, until the Internet shooters started spreading stuff by guys who never saw a SAKO extractor or converted a bolt face. SAKO extractors were installed in Rem bolts when the bolt face was converted to a different diameter case head. If it was possible to replace the old Rem extractor with a new Rem extractor, that is what would have been done. We didn't have access to new, replacement bolts and had to do with what was available. That was a SAKO extractor, or replacing the entire front of the bolt with a SAKO. Installing an M16 extractor was an option but you had to mill away half of the bolt to install it.

That's why the entire SAKO extractor thing should be a dead issue. It's 2010.

JMHO

Ray
 
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Cheechako said:
Don't forget guys, there wasn't anything wrong with Remington extractors. Nobody said there was, until the Internet shooters started spreading stuff by guys who never saw a SAKO extractor or converted a bolt face. SAKO extractors were installed in Rem bolts when the bolt face was converted to a different diameter case head. If it was possible to replace the old Rem extractor with a new Rem extractor, that is what would have been done. We didn't have access to new, replacement bolts and had to do with what was available. That was a SAKO extractor, or replacing the entire front of the bolt with a SAKO. Installing an M16 extractor was an option but you had to mill away half of the bolt to install it.

That's why the entire SAKO extractor thing should be a dead issue. It's 2010.

JMHO

Ray
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The first how to article I ever saw on installing a sako extractor was an article in Rifle magazine written by Bob Brackney in the 80's. Installing the Sako extractor along with cutting the bolt counterbore back to .125" in a Remington bolt was to prevent problems with the old Sako balloon head .220 Russian brass and the mismatch that was caused by the excessive length of the counterbore caused by the Remington extractor. Cutting the countebore depth back to .125" and setting up the counterbore in the barrel for a minimum clearance allowed all the web of the case to be supported up in the chamber. The sako extractor and 1/8" counterbore was a safer installation when using the Sako .220 Russian brass than using a Remington bolt and Remington extractor with the .220 Russian brass. Lapua .220 Russian brass with a longer web has made the 1/8" countebore no longer necessary, but it's still not a bad idea. Clearance from the end of the bolt nose to the end of the countebore in the barrel in a PPC when using a Remington extractor needs to be set to a minimum clearance. I've seen problems with Stiller drop ports when whoever set up the barrel had too much clearance at the end of the bolt nose. Dave Williams had a Lapua case rupture at the web when there was too much clearance at the end of the bolt nose with his PPC drop port.

I see nothing wrong with a sako style extractor when used with properly pressured cartridges. However, they aren't such a good idea when the reloader makes a mistake. That's the kicker, people make mistakes. A Remington extractor will handle mistakes better than a sako extractor. You see lots of sako extractors in custom actions made for PPC's. With the powders that are normally used in a PPC, I've never seen a blown primer with Lapua cases and I know some of these guys are shooting some pretty hot loads in their PPC's. I will not install sako style extractors in .223 sized bolt faces. They are too prone to pressure spikes. Blow a primer in a .223 bolt with a sako extractor and it will be leaving the action. When I'm asked about sako extractors when rebarreling a rifle, I tell my customers as long as you are staying with the same size bolt face to stay with the Remington extractor. With what Dave Kiff gets for bolt bodies, it's just about a wash as to expense to replace the bolt with a Kiff bolt as it is to install a sako style extractor when changing bolt face sizes.

If you are going to use a sako extractor, you had better weigh every powder charge when using slow burning powders that tend to bridge up in a powder measure. You can't afford to have an overload caused by a powder charge bridging and dumping more than what it should into the next case. With a PPC, sako extractor and the powders used in a PPC, this isn't an issue as a bridged measure will overflow the next case.
 
Lots of good insight in these posts...Thanks to all. I've always been a careful loader and have had just one case failure in 40 years of shooting....one is enough. The bolt in my pic is for a 350 Rem mag and was altered only because the current owner thought he'd have a more reliably functioning action.
 
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