Converting to the Hand Die / Arbor Press System

M

michaelnel

Guest
Hello All

I am thinking about converting from my current method of reloading 6mm BR (using an RCBS Rock Chucker Supreme press with Redding Competition type S bushing neck sizing dies) and switching over the the Wilson / Sinclair / Hand dies and arbor press method.

I think I understand the advantages of the hand die method (better concentricity being the most important), but I am wondering about some of the specifics of the tools.

First, I see Wilson only offers neck resizing using their neck/decapping die. Is this what most long range benchrest shooters do, neck sizing only with an occasional shoulder bump with a body die?

Bullet seaters from Wilson and Sinclair range from around $57 up to about $200. Looks like there is a plain one, a stainless micrometer one, and the Sinclair/Wilson one that is stainless, micrometer, and with 0.0005" clicks. You folks feel it is worth the extra dough for the top of the line one?

Arbor presses. So far I have found the Sinclair one (gets lots of bad reviews for gear tooth breakage but good reviews for Sinclair's replacement policy, although my experience with Sinclair and Brownells is that yes, they will replace the stuff, and unfortunately it takes weeks to make the round trip).

There is the Bald Eagle one (but I'm sure it must be either Chinese or Taiwanese with the corner cutting that always comes along with manufacturing there), so I am hesitant to go with that one.

I have a couple items from 21st Century shooting that I have been very impressed with (primer seater and expander mandrel die). They make a couple different kinds, a conventional gear driven one kind of like the Sinclair and Bald Eagle ones and a new generation one that uses linkage instead of the rack and pinion setup. Is that mostly an advantage if you want to do full length resizing?

Last one I have found is the K&M, which also looks like a premium tool and an innovative design, with the toggle-link system.

There isn't a heck of a lot of money spread between them all. I am tending to lean toward the K&M as what looks like the best design, and the ability to add more farkles to it in the future (force measurement).

So what are the opinions of the learned folks here?
 
The plainest and least expensive Wilson seaters are just fine with me. I keep track of the settings by using my calipers to measure the combined length of the stem and cap.

As for sizing, in competition, presses, with threaded bushing type FL dies are the rule. On the arbor press selection, Harrell's Precision makes one. You have mentioned 21st Century. Both make excellent products. Anything that does not break, and pushes down on cap will work.

Back to the seaters, I have spent plenty of time with micrometer versions, so it is not through lack of experience that I have come to my current opinion, but rather from use of a custom, very tightly dimensioned seater, that does not have a micrometer option. After I got used to using it, I found that the micrometer was just unnecessary window dressing...for me.
 
Boyd Allen said:
Back to the seaters, I have spent plenty of time with micrometer versions, so it is not through lack of experience that I have come to my current opinion, but rather from use of a custom, very tightly dimensioned seater, that does not have a micrometer option. After I got used to using it, I found that the micrometer was just unnecessary window dressing...for me.
Click to expand...
And, an unnecessary expenditure. Instead of the micrometer head for the seater, I opted for the inline seater die stem shim set. Once set, I never have to worry about resetting that pesky set screw again. if I see I need to adjust in or out a few thousands, I simply add or remove a few thousandths worth of shims.

Regards......
 
Boyd Allen said:
The plainest and least expensive Wilson seaters are just fine with me. I keep track of the settings by using my calipers to measure the combined length of the stem and cap.
Click to expand...

Heh... although my Redding Competition neck sizing set has a micrometer bullet seater, I never use the micrometer for what it is designed for. I seat them long, measure with calipers and ogive comparator, work it in until it's right. I would likely do the same thing with the high zoot Sinclair / Wilson micrometer click seater, so why spend that money?

As for sizing, in competition, presses, with threaded bushing type FL dies are the rule.
Click to expand...

Figures. ;-). I have the neck sizer version of the Redding Competition set. It does have a body die though. Suppose I should just buy a full length sizer. I figured neck sizing was better because of the cases being fireformed to the chamber.

I am not competing yet, I am still working my way up to that, slowly. Mostly, I compete with myself.

On the arbor press selection, Harrell's Precision makes one. You have mentioned 21st Century. Both make excellent products. Anything that does not break, and pushes down on cap will work.
Click to expand...

Thanks, I had forgotten about Harrell's. No comment on the K&M one?
 
OK michaelnel...... this is for you. You said "you understand why Wilson dies....concentricity....etc etc...."

I'm not agreeing/disagreeing with anyone else in this thread, in fact just scanned the rest of the answers but I feel this must be said.

There are THREE types of sizing dies......

#1- Factory Full Length sizers, some have removable bushings for changing the neck tension, most have expander balls or mandrels. THIS IS WHAT YOU AND MOST OF THE WORLD KNOW OF!!!! These are made by outfits like RCBS, Redding, Forster, Hornady etc etc......These generally are capable of reloading rounds equal to factory rounds. These are rarely seen around Bench Rest and if they are you may be assured that there was some careful behind-the-scenes planning and fitting involved.

#2- Wilson Hand Dies and "Wilson style" hand dies. These do make good, concentric reloads, with these you can check the accuracy potential of your rifle. You can make some loads BETTER, more accurate than factory loads, unlike the FL dies mentioned above. But there is a problem, the rounds get tight. And, NO, the idea of "now and then cramming the cases into a body die to make them fit again" isn't best, isn't even bearable IMO.

#3- FITTED Full Length sizing dies. When someone in BR mentions "BR guys all full length size" he generally forgets to mention that these are not your granddaddy's factory full length sizing setups. Generally these dies are fitted to a particular chamber one of two ways....either the gunsmith involved has ordered a reamer and fitted a chamber specifically to a factory die OR a custom-made full length sizing die has been fitted to a particular chamber. And in any case the expander ball setup has been cast forth upon the waters, generally as a fishing weight. Ditched, as it were. FITTED FL DIES are a necessary pita to acquire, they are more expensive and IMO they are only warranted for a true accuracy setup but they are the ONLY WAY you can load and fire a case many times at full accuracy......and here's where you get lucky......you have a 6BR. You need spend less than a hundred bucks TOTAL to be loading to nearly your full potential :)


Harrell's Precision Art Thy Salvation. Ugly art, buy FFF, it's still art.

This is what you need, right here. http://harrellsprec.com/index.php/categories/reloading-dies

I've got thousands of dollars invested in dies and the only thing I use Wilson Style dies for is ultralight varmint hunting.


opinionby




al
 
michaelnel said:
Who makes that? I missed it on the LE Wilson site if it's there.
Click to expand...

The are called "Skip's Seater Die Shims" and can be had from Sinclair:
Sinclair #749-001-370ST .22-6mm
Sinclair #749-001-326ST .25-.30
Sinclair Catalog 2014-A page 51

I also use "Skip's Machine Die Shims" when using my screw in bump dies.
Sinclair #749-001-325ST
Sinclair Catalog 2014-A page 70

I've had both sets since the mid 90's and they have served me well. When using the Screw Die Shims, don't whang your die down mega tight or you will crush the shim(s).They will rust so keep them lightly oiled and they will last you a lifetime.

Regards.....
 
alinwa said:
"Wilson style" hand dies....But there is a problem, the rounds get tight. And, NO, the idea of "now and then cramming the cases into a body die to make them fit again" isn't best, isn't even bearable IMO.
Click to expand...

Al, why is "cramming...to make them fit again" unbearable?
 
Hunter said:
Al, why is "cramming...to make them fit again" unbearable?
Click to expand...

Because you've just wasted a shot on that case, or two.....at a dollar a shot. And the time spent doing it, whatever that's worth. And thrown the match if that's important. That squeezed down case cannot shoot the same as it just did....

For consistency a rifle must vibrate the same for every shot. Fireforming loads shoot differently than fireformed loads. Rounds that load the same, preload the system the same and vibrate the same have the best chance of staying squarely in the tuning window.

Believe me, the agg's being fired today in competition aren't held by guys all'asudden deciding "oooohh, these are getting tight.... maybe I'd better scrunch them thru a body die so's I don't gall me' lugs..."
 
The prejudice that some have against FL sizing, which makes them gravitate to neck sizing alternated with body or FL, comes from their experience with FL dies being limited to those that do not match their chambers, and which have overly tight necks, that cause necks to become cocked, relative to their case bodies, when expanded. If one has a FL die that is a proper match to the chamber from which the brass that it will be sizing comes, none of the negatives are there, and beyond that, there are some advantages.
Bottom line, with a proper die to chamber match, there really is no reason to neck size, and there are several not to.
 
I have a replacement barrel on order that should be here within the next three weeks or so. I will look into getting a custom-fit FL die at that point.

Thanks everyone for the great advice!
 
Boyd Allen said:
The prejudice that some have against FL sizing, which makes them gravitate to neck sizing alternated with body or FL, comes from their experience with FL dies being limited to those that do not match their chambers, and which have overly tight necks, that cause necks to become cocked, relative to their case bodies, when expanded. If one has a FL die that is a proper match to the chamber from which the brass that it will be sizing comes, none of the negatives are there, and beyond that, there are some advantages.
Bottom line, with a proper die to chamber match, there really is no reason to neck size, and there are several not to.
Click to expand...



Well said.....

And that said, I once watched a HOF shooter at a match loading with a body die and a neck die. He had two presses set up and was laboriously doing BOTH operations for each and every reload. He recognized the problem, "arose and overcame" and because he had a body die that "fit" and a set of Wilson dies, he was getting by. Shooting good too. But I watched him drop a 4-and-1 with a half inch of paper in it and ya' hadda' wonder! "Did he forget a step?"

al
 
michaelnel said:
Hello All

I am thinking about converting from my current method of reloading 6mm BR (using an RCBS Rock Chucker Supreme press with Redding Competition type S bushing neck sizing dies) and switching over the the Wilson / Sinclair / Hand dies and arbor press method.

I think I understand the advantages of the hand die method (better concentricity being the most important), but I am wondering about some of the specifics of the tools.

First, I see Wilson only offers neck resizing using their neck/decapping die. Is this what most long range benchrest shooters do, neck sizing only with an occasional shoulder bump with a body die?

Bullet seaters from Wilson and Sinclair range from around $57 up to about $200. Looks like there is a plain one, a stainless micrometer one, and the Sinclair/Wilson one that is stainless, micrometer, and with 0.0005" clicks. You folks feel it is worth the extra dough for the top of the line one?

Arbor presses. So far I have found the Sinclair one (gets lots of bad reviews for gear tooth breakage but good reviews for Sinclair's replacement policy, although my experience with Sinclair and Brownells is that yes, they will replace the stuff, and unfortunately it takes weeks to make the round trip).

There is the Bald Eagle one (but I'm sure it must be either Chinese or Taiwanese with the corner cutting that always comes along with manufacturing there), so I am hesitant to go with that one.

I have a couple items from 21st Century shooting that I have been very impressed with (primer seater and expander mandrel die). They make a couple different kinds, a conventional gear driven one kind of like the Sinclair and Bald Eagle ones and a new generation one that uses linkage instead of the rack and pinion setup. Is that mostly an advantage if you want to do full length resizing?

Last one I have found is the K&M, which also looks like a premium tool and an innovative design, with the toggle-link system.

There isn't a heck of a lot of money spread between them all. I am tending to lean toward the K&M as what looks like the best design, and the ability to add more farkles to it in the future (force measurement).

So what are the opinions of the learned folks here?
Click to expand...

You only need FOUR objects.

#1 Stick a Harrell's F/L Bushing Die on top of one of these: #2 http://www.6mmbr.com/harrellscombopress.html #3 Insert a shellholder.

#4 Add a Wilson Seater [With or without the Micrometer. I prefer the Micrometer for ease when changing bullets, just record the settings.] ... and you're set for life.

Keep it simple. Real simple. :)
 
Last edited by a moderator:
abintx said:
You only need FOUR objects.

#1 Stick a Harrell's F/L Bushing Die on top of one of these: #2 http://www.6mmbr.com/harrellscombopress.html #3 Insert a shellholder.

#4 Add a Wilson Seater [With or without the Micrometer. I prefer the Micrometer for ease when changing bullets, just record the settings.] ... and you're set for life.

Keep it simple. Real simple. :)
Click to expand...

Here's mine. Left to right you have a K&M arbor press with force measurement option removed and a Wilson bullet seating die. Next to that you have a Harrell compact press with a Harrell FL die screwed in.

2dmioft.jpg


Regards......
 
Last edited by a moderator:
dixieppc said:
Here's mine. Left to right you have a K&M arbor press with force measurement option removed and a Wilson bullet seating die. Next to that you have a Harrell compact press with a Harrell FL die screwed in.

attachment.php


Regards......
Click to expand...

no pic dixie
 
That's all right, I know what all the gear looks like. I am just waiting for my new barrel before gearing up. As I understand it, I am going to need three fired cases from the new barrel in order to get the Harrell's die, so I just have to be patient.
 
alinwa said:
no pic dixie
Click to expand...

I had uploaded it to the upload section of this forum but it disappeared after a few hours. I have uploaded it again and edited the message to show the image. If it disappears again in a few hours that means that all uploads to this forum disappear after a few hours.

Regards.....
 
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