CNBC Exposes Remington trigger coverup

[LHSmith]

Consider this:

(Bozeman MT Daily Chronicle)

By KATHLEEN O'TOOLE Chronicle Staff Writer 11/05/2000 00:00:00 (Montana)

Remington rifle involved in growing number of accidents





One of those lawsuits ended in 1994 with Remington paying $17 million to a Texas man whose Remington Model 700 bolt-action rifle accidentally discharged and shot him in the foot.

And he has the muzzle pointed at foot because..........?

Barbara Barber, Gus Barber's mother, said Wednesday that was exactly what happened to her as she unloaded the gun. But this time the barrel of her gun was pointing at the open door of a horse trailer. The bullet went through the trailer's wall and hit her son in the abdomen as he stood on the other side. "My finger wasn't on the trigger," she said.

What was she thinking?........Well.....she wasn't!




The most recent was this past Friday, when a Bozeman hunter, Justin Sabol, was unloading his Remington Model 700 .22-250-caliber rifle when it discharged. The bullet first hit the floor of his truck, then ricocheted and hit Robert Nase, 53, of Belgrade, in the forearm, causing a minor injury.

A loaded gun in a vehicle?


In June 1993, 11-year-old Hank Blacksmith was at the home of his friend, Jesse Coonfare, in Billings. Coonfare got his father's Remington Model 600 Mohawk rifle, a gun that Remington had recalled in 1978.
The gun slipped from Coonfare's hands and accidentally discharged, shooting and killing Blacksmith. That case also settled out of court in 1996 and the terms of the settlement were also sealed and confidential.

Wait A Minute....Now were talking about a model other than the 700, why not bring up anecdotes about trigger problems from Remingtons blackpowder era also? Besides the FACT that Remington DID recall that model AND the incident happened years AFTER the recall.



Remington had 1979 tests that showed only 1 percent of the Model 700 guns could be "tricked" into a discharging inadvertently and argued that a recall "would have to gather 2 million guns just to find 20,000 that are susceptible to this condition," according to the subcommittee's minutes. But Attorney Richard C. Miller, a Missouri attorney who has represented more than 40 cases against Remington regarding accidental discharges of the Model 700, believes the real reasons Remington didn't order a recall because it would be too costly and hurt the company's future sales. "Every one can do it. There's not one out there that's safe," Miller said Friday.

A 700 Recall WAS done in Jan 79 to address the trigger lock issue....the above is NOT FACTUAL.


Miller explained there are two problems with the Model 700 rifle. The first is a problem where the internal components of the system don't always return the sear-block safety, which blocks the firing pin from reaching the primer. When that happens, the only thing keeping the gun from firing is the safety.

NO, it's caused by oil and dirt.


Looking back on 45 years of hunting, I've seen a few AD's ...even had one or two myself......and in every case, it was a matter of unloading when coming off a treestand when you are cold to the bone.....can't feel your fingers and toes....not to mention your thinking ain't exactly clear either.
You can bash Remington, but don't B**** when they are forced to move operations out of the Country due to these frivolous lawsuits, nor when the government mandates 10 # minimum, non=servicable triggers.

 

[Donald]

Well I might as well ad my .02 cents too. I watched the program twice. I think there was a certain amount of " smear" built into the program. But this is pretty much the way all "news programs" operate. Its news only if its bad. You don't see any reports or stories about the good things that happen, just the bad, terrible, horific and the bigger the explosion the better. That seems to just be the way the world operates. I think the main thing I got out of the program was that Mike Walker admited that his design was faulty and he discovered it in the first 200 rifles manufactured. He designed a dfferent trigger/safety and recommended it be implemented immediately. Apparently Remington decided not to. Unfortunated decision for sure. Now when the man that designed the system admits that he recogonized there was a problem and designed an improved system, but it was not used. Is that not the fault of Remington? Back in those days a lot of things were designed that carried huge liability problems. Remember the Corvair and the gas tank located in front of the dash. Or the Ford Pinto that when rear ended it would rupture the gas tank. And the Chevy truck gas tank. Heck I can remember when the gas tank on a Chevy truck was in the cab behind the front seat. I am sure there are dozens of other dangerous situations out there. We learn by failures. Sometimes these failures are caused by bad judgement. Re: The explosion of the space shuttle due to being launched in freezing weather when the "O" ring would not seal properly. Some failures are minor some are catastrophic. I would guess that the problems Remington had with their trigger system was what caused the rash of manufacturers building triggers with 8-9 lb pulls. Lawyer triggers. That way if anyone "fiddled" with the trigger to lighten it a bit they could say "thats not the way we built it, it was modified after the sale". And they would be correct.

Now the thing I did not see in any of the tv report or the above postings was the way Savage solved the problem. I don't know how many idiots I have seen post that... "well I just don't like that little thingie in the middle of my trigger". Crap...you can hardly feel it. And it does for a fact make the rifle incapable of being fired unless the trigger is pulled to the extent the safety shoe is out of the way. Face it.....Remington had a problem, their main man told them so and they failed to fix the problem. I am neither for or against Remington and I sure hope we don't loose another manufacturing plant of any kind. But the day of manufacturers shoving faulty products onto the public is over. And they have for a fact done so for years. I just feel sorry for those that were killed or maimed because of this practice.

And yes, good maintance is a must, but how many hunters do you suppose that are out there that hunt only once or twice a year? And how many of those make sure thier rifle is cleaned, serviced, sighted in properly and inspected to be sure it is safe. Very few I would bet. I would bet there are some that don't even look down the barrel to see if there was an obstruction before firing that first shot. People can be incredibly dumb when it comes to handling dangerous products. For instance washing parts in gasoline in a garage with an open fire. It does not behoove the manufacturers to ad to the ignorance of the public. Most are afraid to include clear and important safety instructions on how to properly service their rifle for fear of people misunderstanding them, I suppose. Anyway, thats my opinion....worth about what it cost you.

Donald

 

[Gary O]

Donald; thanks for the post. Now you have me thinking again; not always productive for me...

 

[LHSmith]

Didn't see the "SHOW", I thought previews of the broadcast said Mike Walker's interview was not going to be shown. Could artful editing have mis-represented Mike's comments?
Was the cause of the trigger "problem" ever identified? Remington had a 700 recall in '79 to change over from the bolt being locked with the safety on.....wouldn't you think as part of this rework, that "problem part" would have also been corrected........after all they already took a liabity and O/H cost hit instituting a trigger recall. By the way Remington has had several recalls for triggers on other models.
Why was the trial lawyer unable to replicate an AD in court in a 700 known to have been defective?
Why can't anyone show me the smoking gun ( no pun intended), exactly what part goes astray causing the AD. Until they do it's all speculation.

 

[Bob Kingsbury]

I have seen no mention of the 721 or 722 model. Those were the fore runner of the
700. The 721 and 722 both used a 2 piece sear and different housing. The working parts
are similar as is the design. For that matter, I would say the original patent was for
the 721 and 722 design, which M.H.Walker designed. The 700 was a newer version and
trigger housing and sear were changed in that. My point is, that the original design as
M.H. Walker designed it , is not what is referenced in this smokefest

 

[Donald]

LHSmith,
If you didn't see the show, then how can you comment on what was shown. I know what I saw and heard. Now whether the sound was doctored or not, I cannot say. But I did hear Mike Walker say that he discovered the trigger system to be faulty in the first 200 or so rifles produced and recommended a change. But Remington refused to change it. That is what I heard. Maybe you "heard" something else. Maybe what you heard was what someone told you they heard? What say ye?

Donald

 

[Gary O]

Donald: another good post. I must admit that this is wearing me out. I guess I expected other sportsmen to be willing to keep Remington's feet to the fire if that is what this story indicated. Instead what I heard on this board and others as well was kind of dissapointing. Mike Walker was pretty clear about what happened and if his interview was twisted around I would expect we would all hear about it. Mostly what I have heard was stories about individual rifles that worked ok, so this story must be bogus. I must say that Cabelas has turned out to be a dissapointment, too. Seems like they would want the best for thier clients. Finally, I noticed that Remington was invited to be part of the broadcast and refused. Repeatedly. This case is far from over and if we are lucky we will find the truth eventually. Remington can't keep buying off folks; can they? God bless...

 

[Dennis Sorensen]

I think what Walker meant was the trigger could be improved, I don't think he meant the design was flawed. Every mass produced trigger regardless of make could be improved.

The simple fact is the media wants the story to be big and long lasting as they make money from that and obviously the lawyer wants to make this as big as possible as he is anticipating dollars...

It's all about money...

I have complete confidence in the design of the 700 triggers and in Remingtons response. I have seen way more Model 70's and Mauser 98's with trigger/safety problems than 700's.

 

[Jim Borden]

Amen Dennis!!!!

I think what Walker meant was the trigger could be improved, I don't think he meant the design was flawed. Every mass produced trigger regardless of make could be improved.

The simple fact is the media wants the story to be big and long lasting as they make money from that and obviously the lawyer wants to make this as big as possible as he is anticipating dollars...

It's all about money...

I have complete confidence in the design of the 700 triggers and in Remingtons response. I have seen way more Model 70's and Mauser 98's with trigger/safety problems than 700's.

The portrayal of Remington is truly the tip of the iceberg. It will be one brick at a time. Winchester, Ruger, Savage, Weatherby will follow. the chink in the armor has been found!

 

[SShooterZ]

Couple of points after watching it a few times now.

I thought Mike Walker said the problem started to occur when something was changed in the manufacturing of the triggers. Not the actual design. Something about bad parts:

After I left, some dummies got the inspection that I had introduced taken away.

It sounds like many of the rifles were caught before being shipped out with an issue and in many cases, did not have an issue at all.

Also, the one guy they interviewed with a cigarette in his hand and looked like he had one foot in the grave I don't believe ever had anything to do with the Remington 700. He worked in another department and I believe another division that had to do with ammunition manufacturing.

Why was he even interviewed?? He sounded like a discontent former employee.

You can read the entire transcript without any of the media sensationalism and it sounds like YES, there is some culpability on Remington's part and NO, not all 700 are ticking time bombs waiting to go over as soon as the safety is disengaged.

If Remington were smart, and we all know when it comes to $$$ not everyone is interested in smart, they would offer an open opportunity for anyone to send their firearm in who believed it might be affected by faulty workmanship and give customers a chance to ease their minds. Especially if they knew a time frame and could narrow down by serial number.

As someone mentioned prior, this really looks like another step to knock down one more American gun manufacturer and I really hope it doesn't continue onto others.

 

[Dennis Sorensen]

Couple of points after watching it a few times now.

I thought Mike Walker said the problem started to occur when something was changed in the manufacturing of the triggers. Not the actual design. Something about bad parts:



It sounds like many of the rifles were caught before being shipped out with an issue and in many cases, did not have an issue at all.


If Remington were smart, and we all know when it comes to $$$ not everyone is interested in smart, they would offer an open opportunity for anyone to send their firearm in who believed it might be affected by faulty workmanship and give customers a chance to ease their minds.

I believe they did this 30 years ago when the 'problem' first occurred... it was well advertised and any dealer selling Remington products was aware of it...