cheap bullet blues

T

tiny68

Member
Greenhorn with greenhorn questions. Working on 30BR loads. I have been shooting a lot of mid-0.2s and low 0.3s with econo Speer 125 TNTs on a Savage action. These bullets where sorted based on their base-to-ogive length. Started playing with the seating depth after I found some nodes with charge of H4198. I have been seating with a Redding Competition seater. I know these seaters will very reproducibility seat a bullet to a set depth. But they seat from the top of the bullet as all seaters do. I make an adjustment seat 5 bullets and find the measurements from the end of the case to the bullet ogive varies up to 0.009". When I made up some loads with 125 Bergers it was a little better but I still found 0.005" variation in 5 loads. So what is acceptable? I have some 118 BIBs but haven't tried them yet with this barrel or have I done any measurements.

And yes I know if I want good groups, I should shoot the best bullets. I am on the steep end of the learning curve and have just stated trying to figure the wind out. I'll get some good bullets on order shortly.

Thanks from a rookie, tiny
 
But they seat from the top of the bullet as all seaters do.
Click to expand...
Not true. A Wilson straight-line seater picks up farther down the bullet. And if you go at it with a boring bar, farther down still.

But as to your question, "how much matters?" I have no idea -- never tested enough to get a statistically significant answer.
 
I just have inexpensive RCBS dies.

Even so, after seating my bullets, there's a hairline circle inscribed around the bullet somewhat down from the nose.

When the light is just right, it is easy to see.

This appears to be where the seater contacts the bullet as it shoves it into the case.

--------

On the topic of cheap bullets, I have been shooting some of the Dogtown bullets -- a generic bullet sold by Midway.

I also purchased a box of old Herter's bullets at a gun show.

These are cheap bullets.

The man who started this thread describes Speer TNT as cheap bullets.

I would not. But he has a right to his opinion, certainly.
 
I think that you will find that a Wilson does much better than that. In the mean time, try screwing your seater die down till it just touches the shell holder with a little feel, but not too much. The die is soft. When you get this under control, I think think that your average accuracy will improve. Are you shooting over wind flags?
 
More info

I don't think the TNTs are a low quality bullet. I think they are an excellent value and shoot as good as my 125 Bergers. However, they are not match grade from my measurements. Yes, I know they don't seat at the very top. With the Redding Comp seater, the seater mark is no more than 1/4" from the tip of the bullet. I have set currently as Boyd suggested - lightly touching the shellholder. I have a set of Wilson arbor style dies. I will try them for comparison. I do remember now that it touches the bullet much further down on the bullet.

Thanks, tiny
 
Tiny,
For starters; mid .2s and low .3s with a Savage and TNT's is just that; DYNOMITE. Be Happy ! You are doing something right.
On a more refined note,neck tension, will determine how sweetly a bullet will seat. If you're crankin down the diameter of the neck during resize( with a typical full length die and unturned(neck) brass), and then cramming in a bullet with a lot of force, your measurements( as well as your bullets) will be distorted.You didn't say how( with what instruments) you were measuring seating depth , but even with basic stuff (a Sinclair comparator nut and 1" dial calipers) your measurements with factory bullets should be within a thou after seating.
Give us some more info and certainly we can help pin down your problem.
Joel
 
Last edited:
Montana Pete said:
The man who started this thread describes Speer TNT as cheap bullets.

I would not. But he has a right to his opinion, certainly.
Click to expand...

In the world of Benchrest (capital B) TNT's definitely qualify as inexpensive Bullets. Sometimes exceptionally good but still inexpensive.
 
Last edited:
How much H4198 you crammin in that case? I find that with moderate neck tension and compressed 34.5 grains, the bullets are being moved upward a few thou after completion of seating. I tried going from a .326 bushing to a .323 bushing, but groups opened. Now I stay with the lighter tension, but seat bullets as near as possible to match time. Mine are .015 into the leade.

Yes the Speer 125 does shoot very well at short range. But I shoot in 500M groundhog matches, and in that discipline, custom bullets win consistently.
 
More info

Ok. Here are the details. Rifle is a 1:16 twist with 0.332 neck. I am turning my necks to 0.011". Load rounds run 0.3305-0.3310". I am FL sizing with a 0.327 bushing in a Redding S-type die. I have also tried 0.326 and 0.325 bushings. Both increased group size. I am shooting 33.5 gr of H4198. Nodes at 32.0 and 33.5-34.0 gr in this barrel. For flags I have been using a dowel rod and a piece of orange construction tape. Remember I said I was a greenhorn. I just had just had a set of Shelly's old flags given to me and will be using them the next time I make it to the range (thanks James). Lightly compressed load. I loaded up 5 more rounds of the 125 Bergers with my Wilson arbor style seater. These measured varied only 0.003", which was better than the Redding comp seater but I don't know if such a small set is a valid comparison. I am measuring the base to the seated bullet's ogive with a StoneyPoint Comparator with my digital micrometer.

Hopefully range time this week for more testing. Thanks for the input, tiny
 
Boring Bar

Charles E said:
Not true. A Wilson straight-line seater picks up farther down the bullet. And if you go at it with a boring bar, farther down still.

But as to your question, "how much matters?" I have no idea -- never tested enough to get a statistically significant answer.
Click to expand...

What is a boring bar?
 
Boring bar goes on the tooling post on a lathe (can also be used on mills) to bore the inside diameter of a hole after a start hole is drilled.

Hovis
 
Tiny, sounds like your pretty squared away with your reloading . You might try a slightly looser (.328) bushing but I don't think you will see any significant difference. Your variations in seating depth measurements seem to be in the way you are measuring or in the tools your using. Hard to tell over the internet. You might want to polish up the recess in your comparator head and try rotating the cartridge around and measuring it a couple of times,see if the numbers keep coming up the same. Most seaters will bottom out and give consistant results with moderate neck tension and uncompressed powder charges.Whatever the perceived problem,your gun dosn't seem to notice,It's shooting good. Enjoy those new wind flags. Don't throw away the dowel rods, they'll come in handy for furniture repair projects.
Joel
 
Last edited:
neck tension

tiny! try this, use .0005 neck tension (that is no typo) seat the bullets long of throate by about .015 to .020 and let the chamber seat the bullet into the leade, this will get you at the rifling and not much more. I'll buy you a cup of coffe if it does not improve your group's consistancy. do back down the load a bit and come up from there.

Clarence

S: if you have to remove aloaded round from the chamber DO point the muzzle UP and remove slowly, THEN push the bullet out with the cleaning rod.
 
Many of us - - -

Have gone the other way with neck tension with 30's. I have been using .004 since a well known bullet maker suggested it and have never looked back. Thanks Randy.

Also, many of us run more clearance on the necks. I am up to .003 and have had great results. I am thinking .002 is a minimum for 30's. ( just an opinion)
 
the redding seater should NOT be seating on the tip, but down on the larger dia of the bullet. if it is hitting the tip of the bullet, drill the seater to allow the seater to accept the tip, and seat on the body of the bullet.

mike in co
 
Try seating a few with a lighter powder charge and remeasure. I think the powder may be pushing them back out.
 
tiny68 said:
Working on 30BR loads. These bullets where sorted based on their base-to-ogive length. I make an adjustment seat 5 bullets and find the measurements from the end of the case to the bullet ogive varies up to 0.009". When I made up some loads with 125 Bergers it was a little better but I still found 0.005" variation in 5 loads.
Click to expand...

Tiny:

Make sure the face of the primer isn't above the case head by a few thousandths after being seated. This could be what is giving you the inconsistent readings and is not readily apparent. The primer pockets in the Lapua 6BR cases actually have a bit of taper to them and not all small primer uniformers cut all the way into the corner of the primer pocket. Depending on what uniformer you use, what depth it's set for (if it's adjustable), what priming tool you use and what brand primers you're using.....the primer height can vary from .003 below to .003-.004 above the case head.

I use Ron Hoehn uniformer specifically for the Lapua cases. It gets the top of the primer around .003-.004 below the case head with a Fed. 205M primer. Not sure if you're doing this or not..but I use my uniformer to clean the peimer pockets after each firing. The floor of the pocket moves around after a few firing and will change how deep the primers seat...you'll be amazed how many times you'll cut a bit of brass when using your uniformer to clean the pockets. :eek:

When initially tuning a 30BR I use a BR quality bullet, seated .025 past the 'jam' length, with .003-.004 neck tension, a Fed 205M or WSR primer, 32.5 of H4198 and I go up in .5 gr. increments. If everything is done correctly, you'll find 2 or 3 spots where it will will shoot well..from 'down' low' until you can't get any more powder in the case. Don't be concerned about the load being compressed. I think that .002 neck clearance is the minimum to start with. I've seen some issues with tighter clearances in these .30BR's. Reamer mfgs. work to certain tolerances and a .330 neck can be .0005-.001 from that when meaured after the chamber is cut. I've been using quite a bit more clearance than that in my junk for 4 seasons now. ;)

Tiny...I can't stress how important it is to start working with a known accurate BR bullet! Only after you establish your rigs accuracy ability should you consider working with something else...if ever. While some of these over-the-counter bullets like the TNT's are darn accurate, they are just 'loose' enough on target to not show the effects of your tuning efforts. You'll end up chasing your tail over stuff that you think works that really doesn't. And things that apparently don't work really would...if you were only using a true BR bullet.

Cheap bullets are the most exspensive lesson in Benchrest! :eek::(

For what it's worth......:) -Al
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top