Change in rimfire BR over the last 10 years

[Kent Owens]

I haven't shot rimfire BR over the last 10 years. Got old and bad health caused to to have to quit. I notice some great scores, and I used to build some good rifles. My question to the experience shooters is, what has changed in equipment, barrels, and ammo over the past 10 years. I do watch the scores and shooters, and I see Lapua ammo has came back strong. Am I wrong?

 

[tonykharper]

Kent you have asked a very good question. When I have time, I'll give you my thoughts on the subject.

Para phrasing the words of a great American. It's a damn shame what RFBR has come to, for people like me, and people like you.

More later.
TKH

 

[Kent Owens]

Thanks Tony, I value your opinion, as you're been fighting in the trenches for year, so to speak. I still have an interest in the rifles and the game, and enjoy discussing both.

 

[tonykharper]

Thanks Tony, I value your opinion, as you're been fighting in the trenches for year, so to speak. I still have an interest in the rifles and the game, and enjoy discussing both.

I'll start by answering your first question. Lapua has been the only game in town since about 2014. If you recall Eley Tenex and Eley Benchrest Gold were the go-to ammo for a long time after the Lapua factory in Finland blew up. There have been some good to great lot numbers by Eley, but they are few and very hard to find.

We have many more shooters buying the high-quality ammo than ever before. The only matches being won today with Eley is with old Eley that has been squirreled away for years. Some exceptions but not many. You know anything can and does happen in rimfire.

The shooters we have today are not the same as we had back in the old days. When I first started, RFBR was a much smaller group made up of guys that mostly made their own equipment. At the Nationals you could see so many unique and interesting contraptions. Shot mostly by their makers.

Today if you walk down the line what you see is cookie cutter rifles that all look pretty much alike. Of course, some have better workmanship than others, but they are all very much alike. Even the equipment being used with them is very much alike made by a very small number of companies.

The advancement of rimfire accuracy is another controversial subject. Many new shooters think accuracy has advanced and we are now on the leading edge. I'm not so sure that is the case.

We have many more matches than we ever had before creating opportunities to set higher scores. Plus, we are shooting matches in conditions we never shot before. Many matches are now shot at night under lights or on enclosed ranges protected from the wind. Even our indoor ranges are far superior to what was available in the old days. This has led to higher scores being reported and giving the impression these guys are killing it now. But when you look at the matches held in normal conditions at the normal times the scores are very much the same as they have been for the last 20+ years.

Being an old guy, I don't quite know what to think of the way things have gone. I'm just happy that I can still find a place to shoot and some great guys to shoot with.

But I do miss the original thinking I used to see and the new contraptions that the maker thought was going to revolutionize the RFBR world.

TKH

 

[Kent Owens]

Thanks Tony! I still have a stable of BR rifles, and sometimes wonder how they'd stack up against todays equipment. With the right ammo, I image pretty well. I always enjoyed the people in the game, and like you said all the different rigs. When I started out, I was shooting a 40x with a factory barrel, and did ok, with custom barrel later did very well. Lots we shooting Suhls with factory barrels and doing well. Gary Mitchell and Steve Lawson come to mind. Some guys were shooting Loggins rifles, including Lamon himself, and a few were shooting Calfee rifles, and doing very well. As for ammo, I told my wife the other day that out of 100's of cases that I bought, I only had 1 case that was great, the rest was average at best, some just bad. LOL Windy conditions, you can make out with average ammo, but in great conditions, you'd better have the best. Thanks for responding, best of luck with the shooting.

 

[Johnrh]

This was getting interesting fellows, don't stop now. Love these discussions.

 

[tim]

Tony pretty much got it. I have a small addition FWIW.
While top ammo has gotten absurdly difficult to source these days, on average, it’s better. Top lots probably not but average, probably.
The best barrels are a bit better but the average match barrel seems a fair bit better. The average guy has a much better chance to score a good blank That does not need to be extensively reworked.
Among the significant improvements seems that there is a better sampling of smiths capable of building a capable gun.
The downside….the internet has provided way more BS and a higher % of new guys believing way too much.
While not pertaining to your original question, lots of guys getting older and my personal complaint…..because of a never ending quest for high scores, too much indoor shooting. I guess I understand guys wanting to shoot year round but IMHO BR should be an outdoor game shot in real conditions.

 

[Longer Range]

Easy to signature TKH:s & Tim:s opinion to shoot RFBR game on real conditions outside.

As TKH wrote: "Many matches are now shot at night under lights or on enclosed ranges protected from the wind. Even our indoor ranges are far superior to what was available in the old days"

On indoor range & ranges protected from the wind there is too much shooting equipment, not the shooter.This means also that you can buy success with money and to many people costs goes over the budget and costs can be too much to newbies.

Seen how PRS shooting is rising up compared to RFBR. PRS is shooted always outside and with 22 LR shooting to 200 meter on windy conditions is big challenge.Shooter part is very big and you dont need to find "worlds best killer barrel or world best killer ammo",but with good shooting skills you can win.

Good video from World Championships 2023 from Italy.There were teams from 19 country and 180 shooters.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=20eF84TfOQ4&t=1611s

BR, Timo

 

[tonykharper]

Easy to signature TKH:s & Tim:s opinion to shoot RFBR game on real conditions outside.

As TKH wrote: "Many matches are now shot at night under lights or on enclosed ranges protected from the wind. Even our indoor ranges are far superior to what was available in the old days"

On indoor range & ranges protected from the wind there is too much shooting equipment, not the shooter.This means also that you can buy success with money and to many people costs goes over the budget and costs can be too much to newbies.

Seen how PRS shooting is rising up compared to RFBR. PRS is shooted always outside and with 22 LR shooting to 200 meter on windy conditions is big challenge.Shooter part is very big and you dont need to find "worlds best killer barrel or world best killer ammo",but with good shooting skills you can win.

Good video from World Championships 2023 from Italy.There were teams from 19 country and 180 shooters.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=20eF84TfOQ4&t=1611s

BR, Timo

Timo,

Not to take anything away from PRS. It is a very challenging sport, but it is quite different from RFBR. One could say PRS requires great accuracy whereas RFBR requires great precision. Many of the guys and gals that shoot RFBR could not handle the physical requirements of PRS. Nor can they handle the requirements of 3-Position shooting. Many left those sports to come to RFBR.

I agree one can be successful with lesser equipment in PRS than RFBR, but the standards required to win in PRS is quickly catching up.

That has been a two-edge sword. Good to see the advancement but hate to see the impact on quality ammo availability.

As you said one can win in PRS with good shooting skills. But I will add one can also win with a good guess or two. Trust me when you are shooting a rimfire at those distances you are making guesses on your hold points.

Many shooters that have taken to the precision challenge of RFBR can't relate to the guess work of long range. Too much like rolling dice. You get what you get.

TKH

 

[Kent Owens]

I watched some videos on PRS equipment, and the game. I won't take anything away from the game, but definitely different from rimfire BR. I watched one of the smiths testing a new build without wind flags, and as he shot, noticing the shot placements, I was figuring how the slight change in the wind had moved his shots there. I mentioned that I found it interesting that he wasn't using wind flags, in a nice way. He sent me a message saying he didn't use flags because PRS was a real world hunting type scenario. I figured ok, he knows it all, so I won't offer any advice. Shooting .22's at 200-300 yards is doable, but also laughable in a 20 mph wind. But, my hats off to anyone keeping the shooting sports going. I still shoot, but mostly bullseye pistols now, for fun.

 

[tonykharper]

Tony pretty much got it. I have a small addition FWIW.
While top ammo has gotten absurdly difficult to source these days, on average, it’s better. Top lots probably not but average, probably.
The best barrels are a bit better but the average match barrel seems a fair bit better. The average guy has a much better chance to score a good blank That does not need to be extensively reworked.
Among the significant improvements seems that there is a better sampling of smiths capable of building a capable gun.
The downside….the internet has provided way more BS and a higher % of new guys believing way too much.
While not pertaining to your original question, lots of guys getting older and my personal complaint…..because of a never ending quest for high scores, too much indoor shooting. I guess I understand guys wanting to shoot year round but IMHO BR should be an outdoor game shot in real conditions.

Tim,

Thanks for adding your remarks.

The major components we use have on average improved across the board.

All of our major barrel makers have proven they can produce high quality winning barrels. Many of these barrel makers are offering hand lapped barrels, at least one is offering machine computer controlled lapped barrels. Most rimfire gunsmiths see no need to do any sort of further lapping.

I will say the "Hummer" barrel that Tony Boyer made fame has eluded me. I don't think I've ever had one. I've had some barrels that were better than others but never one I would say was a Hummer. Remember, Tony said "Hummers" would still put them in the same hole even if you missed a minor condition. If I miss a condition which I often do, the bullet will take off for parts unknown every time.

But as you said, when you buy a blank today you can expect to get a capable barrel if the smith does his part.

Scopes: When I started RFBR we were still using scopes with external adjustments, but I'll skip forward to internal adjusted scopes. The first scope that I would call the standard was the Leupold 36X 1-inch scopes. They were more expensive than others but were considered better. They were clear and held point of aim. Then Leupold introduced the Leupold Competition Scopes (LCS) series. When they came out being 30mm they provided a better sight picture, but they had problems. After they got sent back the problems got worked out and they were the standard for a long time. The next scope to gain popularity was the Night Force Competition 15X55. They are still what I would call the standard today. They also had problems when they came out but just like Leupold the problems got worked out and they are great scopes. Very clear and bright, maybe even a little too bright in sunlight or lights on indoor ranges. This is where another great scope came in to play. The Kahles 10X50. This is a great scope that is easier on the eyes in very bright light. Not as bright as the Night Force but this can be a good thing in certain conditions.
I haven't said anything about the March scopes and there are many. I've only owned one, so I don't have much firsthand experience with them. I've heard good things about the March 48 X High Master and hope to have one someday.

I'll only mention one other brand and that is the Sightron. Sightron makes two 10X50s one 30 mm and one 34 mm. Both are being used successfully in RFBR. I have a 34 mm but school is still out for me. I haven't shot mine in competition yet but plan to in the future.

Triggers: Jewell triggers were the standard for about 20+ years in centerfire and rimfire. Then Bix and Andy came out with their Rem. 700 patterned benchrest trigger. When I saw my first one and had a chance to shoot it, I bought 4. The two ball bearings inside were an idea I had never seen, and it worked so well. The very best triggers in the world are FWB air rifle triggers but these Bix and Andy's were much better than my Jewells. I installed all my new triggers and felt I had just upgraded all my rifles.

I was perfectly happy for a short period of time. Then I got introduced to the Flavio Fare (FF) triggers with their tiny ball bearings. That burst my bubble. For years I didn't think anything would be better than a Jewell in a benchrest rifle, then the Bix came along and shattered that thought, and now FF did it again. I know many prefer the Bix and Andy and that is fine, they are great triggers, but I use FF's and I don't see going back.

Tuners: The two most popular tuners we use are the Harrel's and the PQP (Stiller) tuner. The PQP has larger screws in the clamp and three locking screws. Many consider it a little better made.

I've thrown out enough for now. I've named most of our cookie cutter parts but I long for some original thinking.

I would like to hear everyone thoughts on where we have come from and where we are headed.

TKH

 

[Rimfireshooter]

Tim,

Thanks for adding your remarks.

The major components we use have on average improved across the board.

All of our major barrel makers have proven they can produce high quality winning barrels. Many of these barrel makers are offering hand lapped barrels, at least one is offering machine computer controlled lapped barrels. Most rimfire gunsmiths see no need to do any sort of further lapping.

I will say the "Hummer" barrel that Tony Boyer made fame has eluded me. I don't think I've ever had one. I've had some barrels that were better than others but never one I would say was a Hummer. Remember, Tony said "Hummers" would still put them in the same hole even if you missed a minor condition. If I miss a condition which I often do, the bullet will take off for parts unknown every time.

But as you said, when you buy a blank today you can expect to get a capable barrel if the smith does his part.

Scopes: When I started RFBR we were still using scopes with external adjustments, but I'll skip forward to internal adjusted scopes. The first scope that I would call the standard was the Leupold 36X 1-inch scopes. They were more expensive than others but were considered better. They were clear and held point of aim. Then Leupold introduced the Leupold Competition Scopes (LCS) series. When they came out being 30mm they provided a better sight picture, but they had problems. After they got sent back the problems got worked out and they were the standard for a long time. The next scope to gain popularity was the Night Force Competition 15X55. They are still what I would call the standard today. They also had problems when they came out but just like Leupold the problems got worked out and they are great scopes. Very clear and bright, maybe even a little too bright in sunlight or lights on indoor ranges. This is where another great scope came in to play. The Kahles 10X50. This is a great scope that is easier on the eyes in very bright light. Not as bright as the Night Force but this can be a good thing in certain conditions.
I haven't said anything about the March scopes and there are many. I've only owned one, so I don't have much firsthand experience with them. I've heard good things about the March 48 X High Master and hope to have one someday.

I'll only mention one other brand and that is the Sightron. Sightron makes two 10X50s one 30 mm and one 34 mm. Both are being used successfully in RFBR. I have a 34 mm but school is still out for me. I haven't shot mine in competition yet but plan to in the future.

Triggers: Jewell triggers were the standard for about 20+ years in centerfire and rimfire. Then Bix and Andy came out with their Rem. 700 patterned benchrest trigger. When I saw my first one and had a chance to shoot it, I bought 4. The two ball bearings inside were an idea I had never seen, and it worked so well. The very best triggers in the world are FWB air rifle triggers but these Bix and Andy's were much better than my Jewells. I installed all my new triggers and felt I had just upgraded all my rifles.

I was perfectly happy for a short period of time. Then I got introduced to the Flavio Fare (FF) triggers with their tiny ball bearings. That burst my bubble. For years I didn't think anything would be better than a Jewell in a benchrest rifle, then the Bix came along and shattered that thought, and now FF did it again. I know many prefer the Bix and Andy and that is fine, they are great triggers, but I use FF's and I don't see going back.

Tuners: The two most popular tuners we use are the Harrel's and the PQP (Stiller) tuner. The PQP has larger screws in the clamp and three locking screws. Many consider it a little better made.

I've thrown out enough for now. I've named most of our cookie cutter parts but I long for some original thinking.

I would like to hear everyone thoughts on where we have come from and where we are headed.

TKH

Tony, a question about where we may be headed. With the constant chase for ammo, it seems it might be the right time for ARA, IR5050, etc. to consider Air Rifle matches in their competitions, or even allow air rifles in their unlimited classes to shoot side by side with .22LR rifles. From the little I have seen, there are some very competitive air rifle manufacturers out there. It would be kind of cool to spend less than $50 for a tin of 500 pellets to shoot. Man, that would be a breath of fresh air (pardon the pun). Do you think in the future that the air rifle may displace the .22LR competitions?

Thanks, Larry

 

[PedroS]

Fantastic thread, and I do hope our world federations will start thinking about future... I said thinking, not just talking... you know what I mean.

I'm not shooting BR for so long, just 7 years, but I did saw a lot of changes.
Tony has much more knowledge and experience about that matter, and he's sharing here.

But let me share my thoughts about where we are, and where we can be.
I have shot BR in many Countries, talked to many different shooters, organisers and leaders. That's my nature, asking to understand and prepare myself for the future. And from what I have learn BR future looks not so bright.

I think to have a perfect helicopter view we do have to understand that BR is not a pathway discipline but a final one. What I do mean by that? BR shooters don't evolve to another shooting discipline by desire, they stick to BR mainly because we can't do any other. Controversial it might be, BR is the only one that could allow the older shooters to continue his passion. Majority of BR shooters came from other disciplines, not the opposite.
So the question is, why doesn't BR attract younger shooters like the others? Well, just because is not like the "real" thing. Talk to youngsters, see what do they like and what they pretend to emulate.
PRS is like real fighting, IPSC the same, F-class much like sniper than BR. The only difference is ISSF, but here Olympic glory plays a major role.
BR is static, it's too far away from anything real, if you know what I mean. Have you ever saw a virtual game emulating BR? No, they are all action.
To my understanding, the key word, that we are missing to have a more bright future, is action.
However, action, is against the physical condition of majority of us. Not that we are crippled, in fact BR is the most democratic shooting discipline allowing handicapped shooters to compete head to head with a not handicapped ones, but we not anymore of the action life phase.
Look at the last WRABF changes, namely to IS, that I believe should had its name changed to super light rifle. The cumulative changes aren't, contrary to many opinions, to make things easier (of course they do), but only to try to maintain the number of shooters, just because there are no new shooters. WRABF have introduced, a couple of years ago, a mandatory quota for juniors. Of course they are a couple, but the intended purpose is of no success. WBSF tried the same, but for some reason, the world are now on September... when all juniors are in school....

We have to find a solution to maintain our loved sport.

Tony gave a lot of insights about gear evolution through the years, barrels, scopes, triggers. However. manufacturers are loosing interest about BR, and nowadays there aren't many new products born just for BR, if any.

We do have perfect gear nowadays, very good one indeed. The weak link is the ammo. But chasing for ammo have always be the name of the game in rimfire. Don't tell me that the best ones, in any rimfire discipline don't chase ammo, of course they do.
Again, Tony introduced a very interesting point about "hummer" barrels, from Tony Boyer, but then he's talking abou CF, where you do build your ammo.
Tony's words: "If I miss a condition which I often do, the bullet will take off for parts unknown every time."
This is rimfire reality.
And that's something BR shooters tend to forget, doing their part.

I've seen many BR shooters going away because they can't achieve the best material to excel. They did have that gear, but they forgot to do their part. Anytime you know that if you excel, you're going up in the ranking, motivation goes up.

To conclude, my already long post, I think more action and more believe in the shooters capacity have an important role on BR maintenance.

 

[Kent Owens]

PedroS, very interesting observations. Thanks for contributing. Rimfire definitely isn't like anything else. It takes a lot of determination, among other things. It is a very specialized game, and not for everyone.

 

[tim]

Tony, a question about where we may be headed. With the constant chase for ammo, it seems it might be the right time for ARA, IR5050, etc. to consider Air Rifle matches in their competitions, or even allow air rifles in their unlimited classes to shoot side by side with .22LR rifles. From the little I have seen, there are some very competitive air rifle manufacturers out there. It would be kind of cool to spend less than $50 for a tin of 500 pellets to shoot. Man, that would be a breath of fresh air (pardon the pun). Do you think in the future that the air rifle may displace the .22LR competitions?

Thanks, Larry

Not TKH but since I followed this closely…..it was tried and more or less failed due to lack of interest from the air guys and the realization that the guns struggle in real world wind often, mor than RFBR guns
The best of breed don’t even shoot pellets per se, they shoot custom swaged slugs from fitted dies sized for match barrels, often Liljas.
The fact that best of breed setups cost about 20% more than a RFBR capable gun is likely limiting.

 

[tim]

Pedro’s post is pretty accurate. I would add one thing. I have seen changes, more so in IR50/50 which struggles for many reasons.
I have shot this from the early days and unfortunately have seen dozens drop away. Age, no doubt, but largely many, many shooters simply tire of shooting mid pack, they will not invest time, $, effort to advance and simply drop away, becoming older advances the trend. This seems so in CFBR as well which I shoot.
Newer shooters are also unlikely to invest the , now, sizable sums to shoot in any form of UNL RFBR, costs, at the high end, have risen exponentially.
Lastly, when you have a major supplier of equipment that seems to treat customers so badly……doesn’t help.

 

[tonykharper]

Tony, a question about where we may be headed. With the constant chase for ammo, it seems it might be the right time for ARA, IR5050, etc. to consider Air Rifle matches in their competitions, or even allow air rifles in their unlimited classes to shoot side by side with .22LR rifles. From the little I have seen, there are some very competitive air rifle manufacturers out there. It would be kind of cool to spend less than $50 for a tin of 500 pellets to shoot. Man, that would be a breath of fresh air (pardon the pun). Do you think in the future that the air rifle may displace the .22LR competitions?

Thanks, Larry

Larry,

As Tim said there have been several attempts to migrate RFBR to Air Rifle BR. Larry Brown the creator of BR 50 which is where ARA came from tried to integrate centerfire, rimfire, and air rifles into his BR 50 game. The idea was centerfire shot at 100 yards, rimfire at 50 yards and air rifle at 35 yards. Everyone shot the same targets, and it was scored the same. Never really worked. Centerfire soon broke off and went their own way as did air rifle. Only rimfire stuck around but even that came to an end due to several reasons. Then ARA was born and here we are.

Just two years ago I approached Jason Frymier, owner of IR 50/50 and asked if he would allow air rifles to compete shoulder to shoulder in IR 50/50 matches. He agreed and I put out some invitations, but no air rifle guys or girls showed up at any of our indoor or outdoor matches.

I shot air rifles when I was stationed in Germany and really enjoyed it. On many occasions I thought I would buy a state-of-the-art setup and get back into it. Then I learned what Tim shared. The cost of getting into air rifles if you want to do it right is far greater than getting into unlimited RFBR. Even though you may have rests, flags and all that type of gear you still have a lot of buying to do before you are ready.

I was all set to go I even contacted Mike Niksch owner of Thomas Air Rifles. In case you don't know, Thomas air rifles are the best air rifles on the planet, bar none.

Mike was willing to help me get started and gave me a lot of information. After learning there are very few matches in my area, I gave up the idea.

I still communicate with Mike on a regular basis. He is a great guy and very talented.

But long story short. I don't think that will be the way ahead.

RFBR has always been a small community and I think always will be. Pedro shared some of the reasons but there are others. While the factory class in ARA has added many new shooters and that is a good thing, but they are a different breed from what we have had in the past.
If the hope was the factory class would bring more shooters to unlimited, I think it has failed. In fact, there may be more guys leaving unlimited and going to factory than the other way. That giant target is a big draw.

It is too early to know how the factory class will go in IR 50/50. I guess we will see.

There are many clubs and ranges around the country that hold rimfire matches. Most of them don't hold sanctioned matches. Some did at one time but fewer today.

Of what benefit is it for them to hold sanctioned matches and give away part of their income to a sanctioning body? That question has to have a valid answer, or we will see more clubs leaving. Please don't take this as gloom and doom because I'm only putting it out there hoping answers will be found.

TKH

 

[George Atkins]

First, I would like to thank Kent for starting this very interesting thread. Kent was a great Smith and shooter. At one time I had one of his builds and managed to take it to a second place overall finish, at the 2016 IR 50/50 Indoor Nationals and actually won the meters portion.

Now to give my perspective of what has changed in the last 10 years. Maybe interesting, maybe not.

10 years ago I was competing with two Winchester 52D's, nothing special about them, they can meet the IR50 factory class rules as is. Today, I am shooting the same 52D's, I did add a tuner to one of them. The majority of the matches I shot at, only allowed a factory action/barrel, no tuner rifle, bi-pod and rear bag, anything else was good. Trigger, scope, ammo.... The only matches I got to use my custom Falcon in, was during the winter at IR and ARA indoor matches and I shot it the same as I did my 52's, off a bi-pod and a rear bag. Could I have done better off a one piece rest, with a 2 oz trigger, a much more powerful scope? Maybe, maybe not. As good as that Falcon was, it actually shot no better than my 52's when I had good ammo for them. The thing the Falcon had that my 52's didn't, was it would handle different lots of ammo better, but when I found good ammo for the 52's, it would be a draw between them. So, I ended up selling the Falcon and shooting the 52's full time. The best I ever did with the Falcon was an IR 1499-118X, the best I have done with the 52's is a 1499-115X. I have shot 750's with both.

Now for me, the only thing that has changed in the last 10 years, is good ammo is much, much harder to find. Fast Lapua works very well in my 52's, but it (for me anyway) is unattainable. So that leaves me filtering thru Eley's offerings. Eley has changed a good bit since 2014, but I have learned to work with. Had to change my cleaning routine to accommodate it. BTW the 1499-115X was shot with 2022 Eley. Now, all the things that have been developed in the last 10 years, such as better actions, firing pins, triggers, scopes, barrels, rest, are to quote Bill Calfee " crumbs on the table " the ammo on the other hand, is a large slice of bread.

 

[Kent Owens]

First, I would like to thank Kent for starting this very interesting thread. Kent was a great Smith and shooter. At one time I had one of his builds and managed to take it to a second place overall finish, at the 2016 IR 50/50 Indoor Nationals and actually won the meters portion.

Now to give my perspective of what has changed in the last 10 years. Maybe interesting, maybe not.

10 years ago I was competing with two Winchester 52D's, nothing special about them, they can meet the IR50 factory class rules as is. Today, I am shooting the same 52D's, I did add a tuner to one of them. The majority of the matches I shot at, only allowed a factory action/barrel, no tuner rifle, bi-pod and rear bag, anything else was good. Trigger, scope, ammo.... The only matches I got to use my custom Falcon in, was during the winter at IR and ARA indoor matches and I shot it the same as I did my 52's, off a bi-pod and a rear bag. Could I have done better off a one piece rest, with a 2 oz trigger, a much more powerful scope? Maybe, maybe not. As good as that Falcon was, it actually shot no better than my 52's when I had good ammo for them. The thing the Falcon had that my 52's didn't, was it would handle different lots of ammo better, but when I found good ammo for the 52's, it would be a draw between them. So, I ended up selling the Falcon and shooting the 52's full time. The best I ever did with the Falcon was an IR 1499-118X, the best I have done with the 52's is a 1499-115X. I have shot 750's with both.

Now for me, the only thing that has changed in the last 10 years, is good ammo is much, much harder to find. Fast Lapua works very well in my 52's, but it (for me anyway) is unattainable. So that leaves me filtering thru Eley's offerings. Eley has changed a good bit since 2014, but I have learned to work with. Had to change my cleaning routine to accommodate it. BTW the 1499-115X was shot with 2022 Eley. Now, all the things that have been developed in the last 10 years, such as better actions, firing pins, triggers, scopes, barrels, rest, are to quote Bill Calfee " crumbs on the table " the ammo on the other hand, is a large slice of bread.

Thanks George, I like 52 Winchesters myself, have several B's and C's. Ammo was always the hardest part of the game.

 

[john prince]

I would add that the biggest change in the last 10 years is the scores shot by those who didn't win. The best scores shot by those winning may not have changed much but go look 10 or 15 years ago at the scores shot that were middle of the pack then that would be last today. I remember a match at Fresno with 11 shooters with a shooter agg of 1900+ finished last.

I will also take exception to the shooting at night under the lights statement. Not many at all, very few, maybe way less than 5%.