calfee tuner test or not

T

tim in tx

Guest
well guys ,i need to spologize for not understanding bill correctly in this whole tuner thing.i started out with a different understanding and took off in another direction with this tuner which does work very well.this theory of bills wasnt even tested correctly due to lack of information.my tuner has nothing to do with bills theory at all.so i really cannot say it is a calfee tuner.so here is what i will do since bill doesnt want to let go of some basic facts needed to ring the barrels and he said he would but did not .i have found another source to ring the barrel and figure the formula to get the correct weight needed to get the dead spot to the crown.and now do the test with little better understanding if what is going on.i will tune 2 differing loads for groups even though they will hit in 2 different spots and see if i can "stop the muzzle".i will use jackies tuner and try to get the dead spot to the crown,asuming that is what should be done. again i do apologize and i hope i can make this work.i will post the results as soon as possible. tim in tx
 
Tim In Texas

Tim if you can't find the dead spot on the barrel have a piano tuner do it for you.I couldn't figure it all out either as everything sounded the same to myself as well.
If my ailing memory is any good tell the piano tuner your are looking for the 3rd octave.Have him/her mark it with a magic marker pen and after you cut it off multiply its weight by 1.5 times and that will get you very close.
I don't have a clue as to how far from the muzzle it needs to be but 1.5 - 3.0 inches seems to work very well.
Lynn
 
My understanding

You don't cut th barrel off at that mark. It will just move the 3rd octave back. BC is awful hard to understand and he never completes an explanation.
 
Fred J

Fred are you looking for the tight spot in the bore and cutting it off right there after calculating the weight required?
And how are you figuring the distance in front of the muzzle?
Lynn
 
What are you looking for?

Lynn:
Reread your response to Tim in Tex. You don't find a tight spot by ringing the barrel. As for how far in front of the muzzle the weight should be, that's still a mystery
 
Fred J

Sorry Fred I should have written it differently.

Bill wants us to put the crown of the muzzle at the tightest point in the bore.
Bill also wants us to ring our barrels and multiply the weight in front of the dead spot by 1.5 for our tuners weight.
When I had my barrels rung by a piano tuner those two points weren't at the same point so I had the barrels cut off at the deadspots.
I take from your post that this is incorrect? Should I put the crown at the tightest point via slugging the barrel then hang a tuner on the end of the barrel 1.5 time my calculated amount?
Also how far in front of the muzzle should the weight be placed?
I calculated the wavelength and put it just shy of a 1/4 wavelength in order to take advantage of the tuners ability to be adjusted.
Lynn
 
fred sir

what i do is ring the barrel,then find the dead spot[smallest felt vibrations and continuous low noise the boing so to speak].when the boing part of the sounds are deadened fast by touching then i am in the wrong spot,when the boing part of the sound is deadened at a much slower rate by touching that is the dead spot. or non vibating spot,you can feel it and hear when you are there.once that is done say i have 5 inches of barrel in front of that spot ,what i do is make a peice exactly to dimentions that match the 5 inches on the barrel which i cannot weigh without cutting it off , then weigh the fabricated peice of barrel. that is the weight needed to bring the dead spot to the crown.i just add a bit more to keep it safe and then cut it back as needed. hope this helps . tim in tx
 
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Trial & Error

Tim:
That about what I have done. I don't think there is a set formula for finding the correct weight other than keep adding until you get the nice fine one hole group. Of course, that what I do for RF, Haven't ever tried tuning a CF. As I see it, every barrel is different and every tuner maker has a different idea. As for ringing the barrel, I use a stethoscope my son's lady friend gave me. Although most of the barrels I've rung, show to have a dead spot around the same 3 to 4 inches behind the muzzle, they all wound you requiring a different weight. Unfortunately, I still haven't got the weight correct, as every lot of ammo will shoot differently. That's the sad part about RF, no control over the ammo.
 
If you were to calculate a heavy barrel profile used in CF with the dead spot being 5" back from the crown this would take a lot of weight and I will guess around 18, to 21 ozs of weight if the barrel OD is .900 or over. To much for some to make weight for some of the classes in CF.

What I've read in Mr. Calfee's posts is, let the barrel tell you how much weight is needed when shooting different loads since you are tunning the barrel only. Mr. Calfee also mentions how important it is where the placement of weights to be used on the device that will benefit with the least amount of weight being used to get the barrel in tune ( muzzle stopped). One might be surprised when you run your test.

Good luck Tim.

Bobby
 
Lynn,
The dead spot will never be at the end of a barrel. When you cut it off at the dead spot, it will no longer be at that spot, but some where back of the muzzle. The whole point of Calfee's putting the weight forward of the muzzle is to have the extension and weight act like part of the barrel so that the muzzle can be at the dead spot. I believe that according to Calfee, you should cut and crown at the tight spot, ring to find the dead spot, calculate the weight of the barrel from muzzle to dead spot, mount (on an extension)one and one half times that weight so that it's center is the same distance forward of the muzzle as the dead spot is back from it, and then fine tune from there. Correct me if I remembered it incorrectly.
 
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tuner weight...

You might try the following. It is based on setting the moment of tuner weight and moment of the barrel weight equal about the muzzle.

Calculating tuner dimensions....
Here's all you have to do:
Consider barrel length B, barrel diameter D, tuner length L, and tuner diameter T. Tuner is assumed to be a sleeve on muzzle end of barrel and length is measured from muzzle out to end of tuner.

The relationship between these dimensions to move the "node" to the muzzle is :
B^2/2(.2D^2-.01) = (.2LT^2-.2LD^2)(B+L/2) for steel tuner.
B^2/2(.2D^2-.01) = (.078LT^2-.078LD^2)(B+L/2) for aluminum tuner.
Put in the barrel dimensions, assume a tuner length you might want, then calculate the tuner outside diameter T. For example if you had a 24" x 1" barrel and you consider using a 4" long steel tuner you find it should be 1.9" outside diameter by 1" inside diameter.

All the above is for straight barrel. For tapered barrel use the mean diameter for D.

A tuner inside diameter equal to the barrel diameter has been assumed . If you want to decrease this by some amount then just take an equal amount off the calculated tuner outside diameter. If you want to use a solid rod for a tuner then just take the entire barrel diameter off the calculated tuner diameter.

All this should be considered as approximate since there will be a variation in how tuner is joined to barrel (especially true for a solid rod). It applies to natural vibration so has little bearing on what happens before bullet leaves barrel and thus little bearing on how "tuning" might affect accuracy.
 
If the concept is to cut the barrel back to where the "dead spot" is, then replace the weight cut off or some weight thereabouts with a tuner to induce that dead spot to come back to what's now the muzzle, wouldn't it be equally possible to just hang on a tuner (undoubtedly a heavier one) such that its weight would bring the dead spot to the existing muzzle?

It seems to me that shooting rimfire, there isn't a whole lot of consequence from barrel length as far as velocity goes, whereas you might just suffer a significant velocity loss cutting back a standard barrel. If we bring our long range shooters into the equation, the result might be even more detrimental.
 
john

nobody is saying to cut the barrel back,we are saying add 5 inches or what weight is required to bring the dead spot to the muzzle just as you stated should be done.the tricky part is how do you get a starting point because you cannot weigh the metal without cutting it off. and cecil i will note that formula and compair with the final weight if i find it. bobby sir i think you are right.as joel and lynn have stated the longer tuner means less weight needed .thanks for the replies.i am all for any suggestions. tim in tx
 
Tim Sir I would agree. I do understand what Mr. Calfee is trying to convey as it appears sketchy to some. Could it be some are over analyzing the whole process and the answers are right there. I enjoy coming to this forum and learning from you guys and the willingness to those that will test the theories that some say it can't be done this way and it just will not work. There are solutions to every problem if one keeps an open mind and has the perseverance to work them through. I don't see this as a problem but more of a misunderstanding on how it was communicated and received. You guys will get it figured out.

Bobby
 
Friend Boyd Allen

Friend Boyd:

I quote from you: (your post directed to Lynn)

"Boyd Allen

Lynn,
The dead spot will never be at the end of a barrel. When you cut it off at the dead spot, it will no longer be at that spot, but some where back of the muzzle. The whole point of Calfee's putting the weight forward of the muzzle is to have the extension and weight act like part of the barrel so that the muzzle can be at the dead spot. I believe that according to Calfee, you should cut and crown at the tight spot, ring to find the dead spot, calculate the weight of the barrel from muzzle to dead spot, mount (on an extension)one and one half times that weight so that it's center is the same distance forward of the muzzle as the dead spot is back from it, and then fine tune from there. Correct me if I remembered it incorrectly.''

Boyd, an excellent explaination...........

The 1 1/2 times weight is my rough way of getting in the ballpark as far as the weight needed to move the "parallel node" (or what ever Vibe wants to call it) to the muzzle........

Friend tim in tx: I have written in very great detail, in several Precision Shooting articles, about how I ring my barrels and determine the location of the dead spot and how to roughly calculate the muzzle device (tuner) weight needed and its placement in front of the muzzle.............Goodf luck with your tests...

Friend Boyd again: The fatter the barrel, the closer the parallel node is to the crown....this is why fat barrels, without muzzle devices, (tuners) shoot more accurately than skinny barrels without muzzle devices.....

Because the skinny barrel's parallel node is further back from the crown than a fat barrel, the actual weight needed to "stop the muzzle", on a skinny barrel, can be greater than the weight needeed for a fat barrel.........

What I have found is, for what ever reason, skinny barrels are easier to (tune) with a muzzle device (tuner)..........than a fat barrel...

Your friend, Bill Calfee
 
All good and I ain't arguing but....

Anybody thinking straight can see anomalies. There are rifles that shoot to the same hole regardless of ANYTHING. Load, seating depth, tension, bullet, powder, etc... Yes, you can make them shoot poorly but have to work at it.

I don't understand how this could be and some of what we're saying about barrel tuning also be.
 
bill

i certainly dont want to start any trouble.i have learned a lot from your writings over the years, but i have spent a ton of time and money on this project to benifit all on this forum just to find out i was going the wrong direction that seemed to entertain you.believe me it was not entertaining to me .i want to test your theory and am not setting out to prove you wrong i just dont want to be led in the wrong direction.can you understand that?if i ask jackie ,lynn ,dave t,jim bordon or anybody on this forum a vital question they will answer it and make sure i understand the concept,that is what we need from you .not to be told to dig up an article from years back and i will find it or if nobody figures it out in a week you will tell us .i am here to prove you right all i ask is give a straight answer on this forum,all that will do is to speed up the process and save a ton of time money and effort and cut down on the arguments.i am sorry if that offends you ,i dont mean to . tim in tx
 
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Didn't Bill also mention that the type of metal used to make the tuner weights also makes a difference in tuning the rifle.
Rudy Manuel
 
Tim

It is not entertaining to spend a ton of money, and YOUR time is just as valuable as anyone's.
 
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