Bullet RUN OUT

If the distance from the bullet ogive to the lands (or whatever the first contact point is in your barrel) is suspect and actually critical for accuracy than it would seem the most important measurement for that parameter would have to be taken after the bullet is seated and then measuring the loaded round with a comparator that measures from the base of the case to the ogive of the bullet since this seems to be the final measurement that all of the other prescriptions are trying to indirectly achieve.
Actually, I believe the critical dimensions would be case shoulder to ogive. If the cartridge is free in the chamber, what stops it's forward movement is the shoulder. If the bullet is jammed, it will be (perhaps) the bullet. Many of us believe the primer has enough energy to drive the case forward so that only the shoulder will stop forward movement -- regardless of any bullet jam.

It isn't hard to make a seating die that pretty much sets up on these two points. Probably easier with a Wilson-type in-line seater, but a good machinist can do it with something like a Redding competition seater, too.
 
Charles,
I can't speak for others, but for my 6PPCs, I keep very close track of my shoulder bump (.001), resetting my die at the beginning of each reloading session (range day). As you know there can be significant differences in the bump produced by a given die setting, depending on the degree of work hardening. To keep mistakes at a minimum, I have started removing the die from my range press when I pack up. This does not take very much additional time, because I don't have to reset my lock rings. I say rings, because I use a Lee ring, that has a built in O ring, that contacts the press, under a standard Hornady lock ring, that keeps the Lee ring from moving. The entire range of adjustment falls within the range of compression of the O ring, without the metal part of the die hitting the press. I find this a handy arrangement. I keep my brass in sets, that are shot in rotation, to help maintain consistent work hardening within each set. By keeping good control of my head to shoulder dimension, I can use an arbor press die that is adjusted for a particular head to ogive setting, without seeing undue variance from ogive to shoulder. Recently, I looked at some custom bullets, trying to see if there was significant seater stem contact to rifling contact distance variation, there was not, and so I concentrate on other things, like staying in tune, and reading the flags. If I had found significant differences, I would have been prepared to do the required sorting. Virtually all of the bullets used in the short range game are pointed on a single die, by hand. As I understand it, for the longer range games, this is not the case, hence the interest in sorting. Different games, different realities.
 
A long & rambling post that may not be worth your time.

Boyd,

My post was riddled with "ifs" on purpose. As you know, I shoot the long-range game. I happen to use a Juenke machine. I also accept Eric Steckers analysis of the machine, so I don't use it exactly as its designer intended. I test two things: (1) how much the boattail, if there is one, is off-center from the shank, and (2) I measure from the base of the bullet to where the ogive starts. (2) isn't exactly bearing length, because the length of the boattail is included.

(1) is actually measured in "deviation units," what the machine was designed to do. (2) is a (relative) absolute grading. "Relative" is in parens because you can use the "absolute" number only in you don't change any of the dials, and recheck it over time (it is sensitive to line voltage).

OK. The other things I do: (1) is to put the Wilson seater stem in the lathe and with a small boring bar, change the angle to more closely match the bullet ogive, and open the hole up generally so the stem picks up the bullet quite close to the beginning of the ogive. And (2), the body of the seater is shortened so that the shoulder stops the case. If the case head stands .001 or so proud, so be it.

I go into all this not to recommend it to anyone, but because it is what I do, and it has worked for me. All the other things that have been deemed "critical" for the long-range game on the several forums have not mattered for me, and I don't do them. If you do and that works for you, so be it.

As for how critical seating depth is generally: if I were to find that a .001 or .002 change in seating depth was crucial in one of my barrels, I just wouldn't use that depth. For all the reasons Boyd mentions, and others. At the moment, I shoot a .30 that likes to be jammed so hard that the marks on the bullets are quite long. Except for the fact that it would offend all the people who feel that "the number" must be both precise and exact, I'd say I jam them .040. It may not be .040, but I can repeat it. Over the last half of last season and the first half of this season. the rifle has gotten me into more shootoffs than not, which is my way of gauging performance. It is NOT a hummer barrel.

The light gun I shoot is a new-to-me .338/404, with Berger 300-grain hybrids. The rifle seems to shoot best with a ".020" jump. Yours may not. Sample size real small, but I won my relay for score Sat, and while I didn't get centered up as well as the guy who won with a 50, my group was 3.7xx inches, which at 1K is considered worth having (the group in the score shootoff doesn't count). Well, just a couple data points, but it is a succession of such data points that leads me to conclude things are or are not working. BTW, that big bullet is so long I can't check the boattail on the Juenke. I can check where the ogive begins, and I'd say congratulations to Berger, those are fine bullets.

Why do I go into this, esp. as a response to Boyd? Because I think he's right -- not so much right in the specifics of his technique as for the reasons for his technique. Obviously, I think I'm right too. Other things to consider: Don't you think the dimensions of the chamber change a bit as you fire rounds and heat it up? Maybe not with the PPC; I put 450 grains of powder down the barrel with each five shots. Add 4 sighters, and you have 800 grains of powder burned in about 3 minutes.

There are other ways to deal with the phenomena Boyd points out, but *what* he points out is a fact. There are obviously other ways to approach bullet seating depth, but what I point out is also at issue. To anyone who uses a Stony Point, or a Sinclair, or whatever tool, remember all the other tooling you use in reloading, and how that can effect the end result. And finally, remember that for some of us, "proof" is not one group, or even one range session. It is performance under what Jackie calls "the heat of competition," over a series of matches.
 
Good post,
Not too recoil sensitive are we? What twist are you shooting on the Berger Hybrid? I have a couple of friends that have .338 Lapuas.
Boyd
 
Boyd, I'm shooting a 10-twist. But it is a .338/404 chambering, quite similar to a .338 Edge, .338 RUM or the new .338 Norma. Smaller & less capacity than a Lapua. There have been reports that this bullet is limited to about 2,800 fps MV

http://www.savage338lapuamag.com/index.php?topic=78.0

I believe Berger is working on a heavier jacket for the go-fast guys. I'm happy as a pig in ice cream with the 2,775 I'm getting -- it is still moving about 1,800 fps at 1,000 yards, and has a 10 mph crosswind drift of about 44 inches, versus about 60 for most others.
 
Louisf as run out goes I keep mine at about .002 to .004 the better ones for record string. And Pete I'm with you on the Ogive to Ogive measurment and it making a difference in seating depth! Found that out years ago, when I neve adjusted my seating die, but the seating depth was way off. Some will figure it out others will argue were not right. Or nuts.

Joe Salt
 
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