Bullet making jacket stretch

S

savet06

Mike Suhie
Good morning!
I wasn't sure exactly where to post this question as it doesn't fall under gunsmithing, but here goes.
New to the bullet making process about 6 months now and made ~2000 on 6mm Peinhardt dies .790's and .825's with various amounts of lube on the jackets and cores. Success has been decent, but I really want to settle on one process that is simple and repeatable.
Currently:
Using acetone bath x 2 on Hood cores, and then coleman fuel/white gas as final cleaning on the cores. Stuffed the cores in the jackets which were lubed with 2.1gr of Gary Conaway sperm whale oil and unicorn tears tumbled for 20 min after warming.
I have an embarrassment of riches when it comes to bullet makers in my area and each of them has their own method and opinion - I have analysis paralysis!
Have you experienced a situation where the jackets do not stretch after core seating? I am lucky to get .001 even with the heaviest core seat pressure, but my lead line and boat tail release numbers match up with fairly light (~.004-6 off jacket sticking on the punch). Bullets shoot OK with small lot testing, but I have not made up a large volume of them to see if they will agg. I have tried punches from 2106 to 2112 with similar results. Smaller punch gives me excessive amounts of bleed by and larger gets scraping. I use a specimen type microscope to look inside the jackets for bleed by/scraping.
Is the lack of jacket stretch on core seat an issue?
When I use 64:1 lacquer thinner to ATF on the cores, and 0.5gr/1000 Gary lube on the jackets I get .003-4 stretch on the same lot easily. Then I have to re-lube the jackets prior to point up which I would like to avoid if possible. Tried the coleman cleaned cores with no ATF with 0.5gr lube jackets and some them actually got smaller after core seating!
If I increase the lube on the jackets to 2.1gr/1000 and the 64:1 cores the stretch goes back down again with similar core seat pressure, and if I even try approach that .003 overall length stretch number the jacket is ready to or does pop. I have a case of these jackets and I would like to make a lot of them with one method...creating the best bullets I can in the process!
 
Well, I guess I am as stumped as everyone else?
To the range for some testing and see if it makes a difference or not.
 
Mike, you should post this on the Accurate Shooters forum, Shooters Forum, Competition Forum section, heading “Time to make the donuts“. Some of the best bullet makers in the country are on there.
 
Good point, Tim. Sent you a PM. I talked to Gary yesterday and shared the situation with him and he and the other guys didn't have an answer either, unfortunately. I shot those bullets at 200yds and they were some of the best I have made to date so I guess I answered my own question!
 
The best were the bullets that were about .006 off of the jacket sticking on the core seat punch. I also tried some with an additional .010 below that and they were decent as well.
I wish I had a rail gun to be able to thresh out this stuff, but i am enjoying the process a lot either way!
 
savet06 said:
The best were the bullets that were about .006 off of the jacket sticking on the core seat punch. I also tried some with an additional .010 below that and they were decent as well.
I wish I had a rail gun to be able to thresh out this stuff, but i am enjoying the process a lot either way!
Click to expand...
That's cool. 2 wins....
 
savet06 said:
The best were the bullets that were about .006 off of the jacket sticking on the core seat punch. I also tried some with an additional .010 below that and they were decent as well.
I wish I had a rail gun to be able to thresh out this stuff, but i am enjoying the process a lot either way!
Click to expand...
What do you mean by “006 off the jacket sticking on the core punch”?
 
I use shims to move the die up or down in very precise increments (per mentor recommendations). I find a spot where the core seated jacket comes off the punch with a decent amount of core seat pressure. I then add shims (which decreases core seat pressure) in .002 increments to find where it will stick on the punch. I record that number of shims and then remove .004 and make up a test lot there, and then at .006, .008 and .010 to see if it likes more or less core seat pressure. I will also try different punch sizes looking for the best lead line/boat tail release numbers and bleed by without scraping. I have gone as far as .015 from that "stick point" and these jackets just don't move a whole lot in length though they seem to shoot best in that .004-.006 from stick point. The lead line and boat tail release numbers match up at that point (.2431 for my die) and I get very even and minute bleed by with my selected punch (and I have tried multiple sizes).
 
I think, even almost no bleed by. Is very important. I got some bullets from a Very famous bullet maker. Could not get them to shoot. The last time I tried some I saw a very disturbing thing. A little bit of lead had leaked out of the point. I looked with a 10X loupe. After a hundred they became junk. The bullets were unbalanced..... Not even worth using as fire forming bullets. 1000 bad bullets.
Have you chucked up any bullets in a drill and cut the jacket off???? very interesting....
If all good, you will need 2 pair of vise grips to rip the jacket apart.... Try it.
 
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Mike,
Wash the cores in dawn and let dry. Lube the jackets with the least amount of lube you can (0.4gr per 1000). Throw the shims away, loosen the lock ring and run a 2110 punch, advance the core seat die slowly by hand until the CSJ comes off the punch. Measure the diameter at the lead line and heel( or transition angle if boat tai) they should measure the same( .2430) if the lead line measures bigger than the heel try a smaller punch. Look in the csj with your naked eye you will be able to see bleed by or scraping. If multiple csj's are coming off the punch nicely you're good to go. Lightly( LIGHTLY) snug the die lock ring. Make 500 or 1000. Re-lube with 3-4 gr per 1000 in a glass jar( depends on your point die) for about 10 minutes( you can roll this around by hand) set the csj's aside for about a week before pointing.
 
savet06 said:
I use shims to move the die up or down in very precise increments (per mentor recommendations). I find a spot where the core seated jacket comes off the punch with a decent amount of core seat pressure. I then add shims (which decreases core seat pressure) in .002 increments to find where it will stick on the punch. I record that number of shims and then remove .004 and make up a test lot there, and then at .006, .008 and .010 to see if it likes more or less core seat pressure. I will also try different punch sizes looking for the best lead line/boat tail release numbers and bleed by without scraping. I have gone as far as .015 from that "stick point" and these jackets just don't move a whole lot in length though they seem to shoot best in that .004-.006 from stick point. The lead line and boat tail release numbers match up at that point (.2431 for my die) and I get very even and minute bleed by with my selected punch (and I have tried multiple sizes).
Click to expand...
Makes perfect sense
 
Nader said:
Mike,
Wash the cores in dawn and let dry. Lube the jackets with the least amount of lube you can (0.4gr per 1000). Throw the shims away, loosen the lock ring and run a 2110 punch, advance the core seat die slowly by hand until the CSJ comes off the punch. Measure the diameter at the lead line and heel( or transition angle if boat tai) they should measure the same( .2430) if the lead line measures bigger than the heel try a smaller punch. Look in the csj with your naked eye you will be able to see bleed by or scraping. If multiple csj's are coming off the punch nicely you're good to go. Lightly( LIGHTLY) snug the die lock ring. Make 500 or 1000. Re-lube with 3-4 gr per 1000 in a glass jar( depends on your point die) for about 10 minutes( you can roll this around by hand) set the csj's aside for about a week before pointing.
Click to expand...
Thank you very much for that, Joel! I had an almost 2hr conversation with some mentors you know well last night trying to figure this out. One had never heard of anything like this, and when the other one had the same issue, but only with the Peinhardt dies, I knew I was at least not doing anything too wrong, but obviously something not right - Niemi and Detsch dies no issues for my friend, and they would stretch reliably with the white gas cores and 2.2 gr/1000 on the jackets. What you mention as your formula is exactly what gave me the best stretch though with 64:1 lacquer thinner to ATF on the cores and the 0.5gr lube on the jackets.
Thank you!!
 
Mike and Joel. Which jackets are you using...???????
Just curious. I stopped making bullets. Last jackets from Hines were GREAT. Made lots of great bullets.
I have a bunch of bullets. And WW stopped group tournaments.... So I might not ever run out.
 
Sorry, Tim, just saw this. I am using J4 jackets at this time...and I have a few of them so will likely be sticking with them for a while so will continue to try making them work.
 
savet06 said:
Sorry, Tim, just saw this. I am using J4 jackets at this time...and I have a few of them so will likely be sticking with them for a while so will continue to try making them work.
Click to expand...
Hi Mike, We had a great match on Sunday. The 4 shooting PPC were shooting my bullets. Jim was shooting a FB. It was a close match. I think, Jim and Dom had held over and it went where they aimed and dropped a point. Ron got 4 bulls in the last match.
The Hines jackets make a great bullet. The last 3000, I made only one didn't feel right at point up. Next match I shoot it and it went with the others. 200y.
 
I wanted to update this thread in case someone at some point experiences this weird phenomenon of shrinking jackets during core seat and subsequently sticking on the punch no matter what core seat pressure or punch size you use

What i have determined: my cores need to be lubed with the Peinhardt dies. 64:1 lacquer thinner to atf, or fresh and I mean same day or next day Coleman fuel cleaned/semi dry cores, or a vanishing oil that I am trying out...if any of the cores sit long enough in a non hermetically sealed jar and dry out, the jackets will shrink during core seating and stick on the punch. 0.5gr lube/1000 jackets or 2.2gr/1000, the cores need to be lubed lightly in some fashion.
My mentor just experienced the exact same thing I did with similar dies after using Coleman fuel cores that had been sitting for several months.
I have enjoyed the process of learning what works and what doesn't in making bullets, and I know I have long way still yet to go. Coming around full circle to what all the old hats at the club told me: make up freshly lubed jackets, a fresh batch of 64:1 lacquer thinner to atf lubed cores, and make a few test lots. Shoot them to determine the best combinations and then make up a lot of them with the same formula and within a short period of time from when you first lubricated the components.
Anything changes everything, a wise man told me recently...also one of the best bullet makers in the game.
Hope this helps someone in the future!
Mike
 
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