Brass measurements confusing me!

adamsgt

adamsgt

Jerry Adams
I thought I'd get started prepping new brass for March. Using .220 Russian for 6PPC for LV and HV. Got my new Harrels sizing die for my HV gun so I started with that one. Set the die up and ran a piece of old fired brass first. Headspace measurements were taken using the small gauge provided by Harrels.

Old Brass
Before sizing 1.544
After sizing 1.544

New Brass
Before sizing 1.550
After sizing 1.535

I must be missing something obvious but I don't know what. HELP! :confused:
 
i cannot answer al your questions but define old brass.

it would appear that at the dies current setting and the brass's current hardness..it aint moving much even with the die turned down pretty far......
that is a used brass issue.
try turning the die out and then back down till you can just see a change in the new brass..

just my 2 cents worth...

mike in co
 
If by "New Brass" you mean new, unfired .220 cases that you are necking down, they will not behave as fired cases because the body of the case has more taper and the shoulder pushes back very easily.. You may need to adjust or shim your die until you can get a tight crush fit in your chamber. On the other hand, cases fired many timed will set back less than newer cases simply because the brass work hardens over time.
 
Old brass is what I've been using and new brass is what I want to make. I started out using the old brass to set the sizer die. I measured the fired brass at 1.544 and measured after sizing. I kept getting about the same measurement. I kept lowering the die until I've about run out of threads and no change. The die is hitting the shell holder, so I don't think it can do anymore anyway. The only thing that changes is the angle on the press handle. I sent three pieces of fired brass to Harrels to set up the die. Do they tune the die so it's supposed to stop at the correct headspace when the die bottoms on the shell holder?

As far as the new brass is concerned, it measures 6 thou longer than the old brass before sizing but compresses 15 thou with the same die setting. At what brass costs these days I don't want to continue until I understand what' going on.

Someone recently posted a link to a FAQ file that had a lot of info on prepping brass but I've been unable to find it after hours of searching. If whoever posted that link would do so again, I'd be very grateful.

SGS: I just reread your response and if I understand what you're saying I should set the die to size the new brass to something a little longer than the 1.544 of the current fired brass, 2 thou maybe?
 
The only way to find the correct die setting for new brass is to test it in the chamber with a stripped bolt - the very same method you should use every time you adjust your full length die.

Also, the .220R has a different shoulder angle than a ppc which means your headspace measurements are probably not comparable.
 
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Adam, has this "new brass" been fireformed yet?

Lou I wish I could use the new Norma but as I understand it the necks are not thick enough to use in a .269 chamber.
 
For me I dont try to set my die until it has been fire formed and shot once.
Even then I am/can find variance. Example yesterday resetting the die for this year, the brass has been fire formed and shot once.
I set the die and moved the shoulder back .001.
Using the bolt with the firing pin just to check the cases the bolt handle stops at 90 degrees. However some of them require noticeably more pressure to close the bolt completely, than others.
I can change shims and while the shoulder does not move I can get the bolt to drop all the way down which is not good.
I am thinking that for the first firing of the cases a lot were fired with 29.4 gr of 133 and others were fired with 30.0 gr.
Ill fire them once more after this clean up and see if things get any more consistent.
 
Viper8 said:
The only way to find the correct die setting for new brass is to test it in the chamber with a stripped bolt - the very same method you should use every time you adjust your full length die.

Also, the .220R has a different shoulder angle than a ppc which means your headspace measurements are probably not comparable.
Click to expand...

This is exactly why the shoulder of your new cases is setting back so far. Either the die or the radius at the bottom of the bushing hits the corner at the junction of the neck and the shoulder and there is very little resistance to setback. That small contact area is all there is to headspace on until the case is fully formed. If you adjust your die so that the cases just fit the chamber with a little resistance to closing the (stripped) bolt, then fireform, and re adjust for your formed cases, you should be fine. If you inadvertantly push the shoulder too far back things start to get difficult. If you are expanding and neck turning your own cases, test them in the chamber first and only run them in the size die if they really need a little shoulder setback. Mine always do.
As to the issue of not being able to get enough setback of your fired cases after adjusting the die down until it bottoms very hard against the shellholder: Sometimes a new die needs a small amount of metal removed from the bottom in order to get enough shoulder setback for a particular chamber. I'm pretty sure Lynwood only matches the case diameter to the die when you send your fired cases. Many shooters modify a shell holder instead of the die, but if you do that, you need to keep that shell holder with that particular die. If you call Harrels and describe your experience, they may ask you to send the die back and adjust it for you. I'm not sure if this is helping or just making things more confusing. If you know a benchrest shooter near you, it would be great to have him show you how to work these details out. We have all had similar experiences starting out.

Scott
 
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adamsgt said:
I thought I'd get started prepping new brass for March. Using .220 Russian for 6PPC for LV and HV. Got my new Harrels sizing die for my HV gun so I started with that one. Set the die up and ran a piece of old fired brass first. Headspace measurements were taken using the small gauge provided by Harrels.

Old Brass
Before sizing 1.544
After sizing 1.544

New Brass
Before sizing 1.550
After sizing 1.535

I must be missing something obvious but I don't know what.
Click to expand...

You forgot to send Lynwood Harrell a couple pieces of your older brass, for an alternative die, designed for older hardened brass. Call him, and he'll explain their sequence of dies, as your brass ages.
 
Old brass has more springback, due to work hardening from repeated firing and sizing, so it requires a different die setting than twice, or three times fired brass. I don't worry about bumping until that measurement reaches the maximum value, which takes several firings, at least three. It is this longest length that I bump from. On an un fire formed .220 Russian case, I use the depth of the cut on the shoulder, when neck turning, to control the feel on bolt closing on an empty case. As far as your not being able to bump old cases, find someone who will machine about .010 off of your shell holder, then mark it, and pay close attention while setting the die, measuring as you go, with the appropriate gauge. I "unset" my die every time I finish loading for the day, so that I will have to reset it the next time. I started doing this after forgetting to check bump when sizing some fairly fresh cases, with a die that was set for for old ones. The bump was way too much. Luckily I caught it early. If you want to set your bolt close for un fire fromed .220 Russian brass using your FL die, you should back the die off and reset it by feel using the rifle as your gauge. Any setting that bumps a formed case will push the neck shoulder junction back too far on an un fire formed case. Remember that a full turn on the die changes its distance to the shell holder by 71 thousands, so a thousandths change amounts to only five degrees of rotation.
 
When I started shooting BR I bought some prepped brass and all I had to do was fireform. I've pushed that brass. probably too far. You guys gave me some fine clues and that is really helping to eliminate some of my ignorance. I hadn't considered the different shoulder angles. I have a better picture now of how these factors relate. The first rifle I bought has a Grizzly action and I got a firing pin removal tool for that one. The next two used rifles I bought, LV and HV both had Bat actions. I ordered a firing pin removal tool from Bat this morning so I can strip the bolt to check the brass. Obviously I haven't tried to strip the Bat bolts yet and assume :rolleyes: it's not too different from the Grizzly. Fortunately I haven't trashed a lot of new brass yet. I only tried one old fired case in the new sizer die so I'll have to do a little more experimenting before taking any action there.
 
abintx said:
You forgot to send Lynwood Harrell a couple pieces of your older brass, for an alternative die, designed for older hardened brass. Call him, and he'll explain their sequence of dies, as your brass ages.
Click to expand...

No I didn't forget, I sent him three pieces of fired brass which were returned with the die. No doubt I'm doing something wrong I'll just have to figure out what.
 
Boyd

That's a whole bunch of good information. I've got a lathe and a mill if I need to trim the shell holder. I guess a surface grinder would be best but I don't have one of those. Got some nice 1/2 inch carbide end mills for my mill. Maybe that'll be good enough.

I've been using the same sizing die for both guns, using shims for one of them. It felt like I was sizing the HV brass more than the LV brass. Finally decided to buy a separate die for the HV gun, hence the current issues.
 
Viper8 said:
The only way to find the correct die setting for new brass is to test it in the chamber with a stripped bolt - the very same method you should use every time you adjust your full length die.

Also, the .220R has a different shoulder angle than a ppc which means your headspace measurements are probably not comparable.
Click to expand...


I completely disagree with the second half of the sentence regarding setting your dies. The reason people build 'gizzies,' the reason Harrell's sends gizzies with their dies is because THIS METHOD OF SETTING DIES USING THE CHAMBER IS FLAWED AND WILL GET YOU IN TROUBLE!

"Trouble" being separated caseheads...... casehead failure is like getting a flat tire, 99.9% of the time it's 'pfffffftt' and no real harm done but that one time out of a thousand it's serious bid'ness.

I do agree BTW with the last sentence, your gizzie tool is of no use on unfired 220R brass.

The only time to use your chamber as a gage is for setting headspace for fireforming....and that only because you KNOW the case is binding only at the neck/shoulder junction. Conversely, you only use your gizzie on adequately fireformed cases.

Jerry Adams, here's your procedure.



First, GREASE YOUR BOLT LUGS!!!

Now you can use a case to set the stuff up.......you set your 220R brass so that it's a tight "crush fit" in your chamber for fireforming. Only this will ensure straight brass. Done correctly your cases will go in TIGHT for fireforming. Like you'll be heeling the bolt closed using your palm. After firing they'll fall out in your hand. Put them back into your chamber and you'll feel no resistance, they'll drop right back in. Measure using the supplied bushing tool, the "gizzie."

Now you deprime, slide a bullet back in and fire again.

And again.

At the 2nd, 3rd and 4th firings you'll feel the case getting progressively tighter in the chamber. MEASURE each step using your little tool and some calipers and write down your results, FIRST firing, SECOND firing, THIRD firing and se..... If you're not getting measurements which correspond to your chamber feel then you've got a flaw in your technique somewhere. At some point it'll get uncomfortably tight.


KEEP YOUR LUGS GREASED!!!

Once you've got a tight case you re-measure it a few times and write down the measure as "very tight in chamber" or something.

NOW you can start setting your resizing die.

Fuh'GEDDABOUT your chamber..... it doesn't exist! Carefully work the die down, measuring and setting down. Measuring and setting down. Measuring and setting down...... about the time you're ready to give up and SCREW the friggin' die down you'll get a new measure.

Ba'da'BING! The shoulder MOVED!!!

Check it again.

Did it move the right way? Is your new number SHORTER??? Sometimes the shoulder moves forward....

Once you're POSITIVE the shoulder moved back just a fuzz, try it in your chamber. If it doesn't drop in post again for help :) we can trouble-shoot from there.




There's a TON of stuff can go wrong. First of all, proper die fit is an ART. Maybe ten people on the planet (Harrell's included) really know how to make dies that work and Harrell dies STILL often need to be replaced. Harrell's does this for free. The reason for this policy is simple, The Bro's Harrell build their dies off of the cases you sent them. Probably 80% of the time the cases they receive are improperly fireformed......


Soooo, if you sent them nicely formed cases then your die will most likely work perfectly once you get 'er dialed but let's not get ahead of ourselves.

hth


al
 
alinwa said:
Now you deprime, slide a bullet back in and fire again.

And again.

At the 2nd, 3rd and 4th firings you'll feel the case getting progressively tighter in the chamber. MEASURE each step using your little tool and some calipers and write down your results, FIRST firing, SECOND firing, THIRD firing and se..... If you're not getting measurements which correspond to your chamber feel then you've got a flaw in your technique somewhere. At some point it'll get uncomfortably tight.

l
Click to expand...

Al, I didn't know that the thingamabob was called a gizzie. Thanks. Now I'd like to play back what I think you've said here. Based on the first sentence, I don't use the resize die, I just use my decapping punch to remove the primer. I do not resize the neck. I fill the case with powder up to the neck. (N133?). Seat the bullet with my fingers and then slide the loaded round into the chamber carefully so as to avoid spilling powder, close the bolt and fire. Grease the lugs and repeat.

A confirmation would be appreciated. Oh, by the way, I'm not taking offense at your calling my tool "little". I'm just grateful that I can find it when I need it.

Jerry
 
Adamsgt,
When my friend took a cut off of the top of my shell holder, he closed the jaws of his 3 jaw and took a very light cut across the tips of the jaws, opened them just enough to grab the base of the shell holder (the smaller diameter) pushed the shell holder against the end of the jaws and tightened them. The steel is soft, it was an easy job that took about as long to do as to write this. For fireformed cases, the brass gauge that comes with Harrell's dies works fine for measuring bump. A gizzy is reamer specific. I found this out using mine on brass from a friends chamber that also has a .262 neck. something was different at the neck shoulder or somewhere else, and the gizzy was misleading me about where the shoulder was, and I bumped some cases more than I intended. the Harrell's gauge is large enough inside to miss this area and land only on the shoulder.
Boyd
 
Thanks Boyd

I understand the rationale for truing up the chuck jaws. I'll also heed your caution about different gauges.
 
I agree with Boyd, the typical gizzie is cut with YOUR reamer so it perfectly matches YOUR chamber and can be used like the tool supplied with a Harrell die (Ohhh, and it IS bigger if that helps:) ) and yes that was what I was suggesting, that you seat bullets by hand.

There are other remedies, in fact you can short-stroke (there I go again!) your press sizing only the first half of the neck if you prefer but the idea is the same, you must fire your cases several times as Boyd pointed out earlier. My real point is that you use the tool and actually measure the setback. I can't stress enough that using your chamber to gauge shoulder setback is fraught with pitfalls. This is one place where some of the top shooters in the nation will lead you wrong, they've had fitted dies for so long that they forget that most of the world does NOT and must take baby steps to establish that fit.

Once you KNOW your dies match your chamber, once you're completely comfortable with your setup you'll probably go back to gauging with the chamber! Or if nothing else you'll use chamber feel to deal with the changeability earlier ref'd by Boyd. My advantage is that I still remember the frustration, the thousands I've spent on equipment trying to get my mixture right. I've got mountains of dies.

I will again make a statement that's almost sure to get me in trouble......... "I shoot cases from PPC/BR sized to .243/308 sized to 30-06 size to WSM size and clear up to blown out 338 Lapua and I EXPECT to be able to fire a case at least twenty times without it growing in length. I've got cases fired 50-80 times and NEVER TRIMMED...."

Yet my bolt falls closed with gentle finger pressure.

THIS is the ultimate test of die-to-chamber match and proper setup.

Because I'm not a known BR circuit shooter I commonly have match shooters call me a liar (hence my moniker ;) ) but for every one of them there are gunbuilders/competitive shooters who'll roll their eyes and say "I've been having this argument for years! With those same people!"


Plenty of good racing drivers out there that couldn't rebuild a three-fitty chubby to race a mule.... but some of them will still argue with facts.


al
 
The reason that one should not give the advice to set dies using a stripped bolt and the rifle is that it presupposes that the die is correct for the chamber. If it is not small enough in the body, you will end up bumping shoulders back too far before you get the feel that you are looking for. This is much more likely to happen with match type chambers that are on the small size. Even if the die is small enough, the variation in bump that you will get by feel argues against setting the die that way.

One time a friend was arguing with me about this, so I challenged him to set and unset the same die several times, and bring each case that resulted to me for gauging as to the amount of bump, using one of his fired cases as a reference. To his credit, he took me up on the offer. The amounts of bump were all over the place. He went home and made a gauge, similar to what Harrell's provides with their dies. I am not saying that it cannot be done, just that it is likely that anyone that asks about this operation may not have a handle on all of the potential pitfalls of setting a die by feel. On the other hand I know of no disadvantages related to using a gauge.
 
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