Bore scopes and barrel cleaning

B

Bob Kingsbury

New member
Since Skeetlee posted a two part question, The thread may be off track. I do
want to say a few more things about a bore scope. It is the only way you can
see whats in a barrel. Anything else is a guess. Just an example,, I replaced
a barrel for a friend, who said it never impressed him. Yes, it was a well
known brand. Just for fun, I tried to clean it. This barrel had little copper, but
the powder fouling was incredible. I spent at least an hour with J&B, then
isso. I was unable to get to the steel surface. What the hell, I tried 320
clover compound with an over the hill rod. Ya, in another 15 minutes, I
found the Bore. Now in the beginning, following a solvent, some brush
strokes and patches it appeared shinny and clean---simply not so
 
Bore scope

I decided to bore scope a barrel the other day that is well 'broke in' and patches were coming out clean and you'd thought I'd hit the motherlode. I'd gotten the carbon out, but there was copper every where. nhk
 
How does all this translate into real world conditions though? Will a little copper hurt accuracy? Will a barrel absolutely shoot better perfectly clean? I know carbon can be a problem, but is a little normal? I want a bore scope i wont lie about that. What i am afraid of is what i will see, or better yet what i may do to what i see. Will this bore scope end up costing me more money in the long run? LOL!!!! I do think it would be a neat tool to have, and i have been busy with extra concrete jobs this summer so i have the cash to spend. I just have a lot of questions!
It sounds to me like the economical bore scope is also focus adjustable but it is more manual that the delux model. I dont mind that, if thats the case! I can make a hard case and save 100 bucks, unless the auto focus is worth the extra 100, then the case is free. I just dont know.
Bob did you shoot that barrel after getting it squeaky clean? How did it do? did it help? Lee
 
Another alternative is to share the cost of a bore scope with a friend, who you trust to be careful. Once you determine that a given cleaning procedure works, and that the barrel looks to be well made, there will be little need to scope it. On the other hand, without access to a scope, you are just guessing. I have two friends that have them. We swap favors. Every so often I borrow a scope from one of then for a day, but not very often.
 
Do these bore scopes ever show up for sale that are slightly used? I dont think i have ever seen one in the classifieds? Lee
 
Ihave seen them being autioned at the NRA dinners.{Friends of the NRA} I won the bid on one and sold it to a friend who needed it . Remember that the bore fouls in layers. carbon , copper carbon. If you take care of your barrels
The fouling will be minimal . nothing wrong with using a good bronze brush .
 
skeetlee said:
Do these bore scopes ever show up for sale that are slightly used? I dont think i have ever seen one in the classifieds? Lee
Click to expand...

Lee,
I got mine used and have seen a few others advertised. Based on my limited experience, a borescope (or access to one) is more important than your SECOND benchrest rifle.;) That is, if you don't have a rifle, by all means spend your money on a rifle and have fun. But if you already have a good rifle and the minimum equipment necessary to shoot it, then your next investment should be borescope. A really dirty bore WILL affect accuracy, and without a borescope, you just don't know for sure whether its clean.

Cheers,
Keith
 
Looking thru a barrel towards the light is practically the same as looking at a parking lot. Its only
when you can look at it perpendicular to the surface. The parking lot will show cracks and all
the rest that looked great looking thru the end.
Skeetlee, When a barrel needs an hour of regular cleaning with poor results, followed by
J&B and Iosso with only minor improvements then took valve grinding compound to get to the
steel surface, I'd say its performance was compromised. What I didn't mention before, but will
now, is that I slugged this barrel before the scrubbing started. Very tight for 6-7 inches, then
the slug nearly fell thru but tightened some at the muzzle. I might add, that what looked like
serious fire cracking didn't look bad once it was clean.
An aside from that, is you will save some money on all the wonderous bore cleaners
that show up each year
 
I've seen borescopes in pawn shops; might be a good place to look. I can honestly say that investing in a borescope was one of my better investments. Not only do I stay on top of brand new match grade barrels biut am able to follow their condition through break-in, cleaning methods, copper and carbon build up. It also allows me to inspect a brand new match grade barrel before I bring it to my gunsmith for chambering. If there is anything wrong, it goes back to the distributor. It also comes in handy when looking at a used bore that only had 'a box of shells' shot through it, eliminating any BS.

Chino69
 
Hey, Skeet, If you got.................

the money, let ME :eek::eek: buy one, an' if its any good, I'll let'cha know. Now I don't even have to post it here, I'll CALL YA; so you can hear all the ooohs an' ahhhhhhhss kinda like bein' on one'a them sex calls, :eek:only, YOU'LL KNOW ITS REAL!!!! I'll say stuff like, "Ohhhhh, SKEEtey, this scope is SOMETHIN!!;):D yes, yes, ohhhh YES, YES,YES!! :eek: This barrel is CLEEEeeeaaaaNN." :)

Well, I'll probably have the restraint to be a bit more refined, :cool: but y'get th'drift, right??
 
skeetlee said:
How does all this translate into real world conditions though? Will a little copper hurt accuracy? Will a barrel absolutely shoot better perfectly clean? I know carbon can be a problem, but is a little normal? ? Lee
Click to expand...

I think the question is more, "does it shoot worse dirty, how much worse and when does unacceptable benchrest accuracy trail off without cleaning?" Didn't j schmidt shoot his pending nbrsa world record without cleaning during the entire 100 yard agg? I believe so. But, that was a .30 cal rifle. --Greg
 
Bob Kingsbury said:
Looking thru a barrel towards the light is practically the same as looking at a parking lot. Its only
when you can look at it perpendicular to the surface. The parking lot will show cracks and all
the rest that looked great looking thru the end.
Skeetlee, When a barrel needs an hour of regular cleaning with poor results, followed by
J&B and Iosso with only minor improvements then took valve grinding compound to get to the
steel surface, I'd say its performance was compromised. What I didn't mention before, but will
now, is that I slugged this barrel before the scrubbing started. Very tight for 6-7 inches, then
the slug nearly fell thru but tightened some at the muzzle. I might add, that what looked like
serious fire cracking didn't look bad once it was clean.
An aside from that, is you will save some money on all the wonderous bore cleaners
that show up each year
Click to expand...

The part about firecracking; This was a big surprise to me after getting a borescope. It will go away quite often with a dern good cleaning. Being able to see the condition of the throat and or if there is a throat is important I think. I have seen longitudinal cracks at the beginning of the throat in some barrels. I have also seen one that had it's entire throat as well as 3 or 4 inches ahead of the throat burned up.


Another issue I have seen is some barrels will have one groove that will stay black even after the others have cleaned up. I assume this to mean that groove is deeper than the others?
 
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I wanted to also add

the carbon deposits I see in my barrels and have seen in the barrels of others usually occurs on the lands in the first 4 to 6 inches of the barrel from the breech end. In cleaning it I have found that is tends to be thicker nearer the throat. At least that will be the toughest part to get out. I would also add that I have yet to find a liquid solvent that will touch that burnrd on carbon. I have had to mechanically remove it via JB or Iosso. I haven't tried aything stronger or needed to.

Regarding Lapping: Someone above mentioned using lapping compound to clean a barrel. A friend told me he is able to restore the life of some barrels by lapping them. He sez they don't last as long as a new one but can be made to shoot well by lapping them. Makes one wonder if some of those 600 or 800 round rejects might find a new life, eh? Set them back a bit and lap them a bit and we're off to the races .
 
So what is the best bore scope and model. Seems like Hawkeye is number one--but what model? I shoot 30 inch 6.5 x 284 and a .223, and a 7mm x08. Will one model work for all? thanks,

Chip
 
Pete, In my previous post I was not suggesting that lapping compound should be used to clean a barrel. The barrel that I subjected to this harsh treatment was owned and used by a fellow
that believed he kept his barrels clean and in good shape. Powder fouling gets ironed on
and In some cases becomes impervious to nearly any cleaning regiment. Brushes,solvents
and even some of our tried and true abrasives simply don't solve it. It is only with a borescope
that a real picture can be found. It will also show you an off center throat and cleaning rod wear.
 
Bought my first Hawkeye over 4 yrs. ago, recently gave it to my son & then bought another new. 17" Deluxe model with the hard case, cost delivered to my door was approx. $620 with the $75 rebate.Pictured on page 176, Sinclair catalog # 2010-A, their # HS17FE-K, 17" shooter's edition borescope kit w/ case, although did not buy either one from Sinclair. Yes, I've looked in the bores of used rifles for sale, that were claimed to only have been fired a "few dozen times", and seen what looks like a sewar pipe. A barrel that is completely worthless. Without the 'scope I would have bought a pig-in-the-poke, and paid way more than what is was actually worth. I've watched firecracking develop from the beginning to the end of the barrel (life). I know what cleaning products & methods work (for me) and which do not. Looked at several of my bores that appeared to have the beginnings of firecracking, but after a thorough cleaning with JB, no more firecracking-- a nice surprise. Was able to measure the amount of erosion in my 6ppc (at 2410 rds. fired), and knew to have the barrel setback from 24" to 20" and it now shoots like it did when new. I could go on and on about the benefits of a borescope, but there are just too many to list. My single most valuable tool, one that has more than paid for itself. And yes, in my opinion cleaning a barrel down to bare metal may not be the best thing to do. When I do it, the majority of my barrels require 10 to 20 rounds fired before they settle down & produce their usual groups. I would never give a barrel a JB cleaning then attempt to fire a match, without fouling shots before firing for score.
 
Bob Kingsbury said:
Pete, In my previous post I was not suggesting that lapping compound should be used to clean a barrel. The barrel that I subjected to this harsh treatment was owned and used by a fellow
that believed he kept his barrels clean and in good shape. Powder fouling gets ironed on
and In some cases becomes impervious to nearly any cleaning regiment. Brushes,solvents
and even some of our tried and true abrasives simply don't solve it. It is only with a borescope
that a real picture can be found. It will also show you an off center throat and cleaning rod wear.
Click to expand...



I understood wht you ment Bob. I was quite sure you did't use Clover Leaf often :(
 
ChipEckardt said:
Is this best bet for a borescope? I see the company that manufactures them, Gradient, lists several models. Would use for 6.5mm, 30 cal. and .223 Thanks,

http://cgi.ebay.com/17-Shooting-Edi...589?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20b3fd228d

-Chip Eckardt-
Click to expand...
Chip: I bought both my Hawkeye's without the 90 degree angled eyepiece, as I said, for $620 after the rebate, from Lester Bruno. Then later, bought the angled eyepiece and although I know many like them, I did not. Because of the very large diameter of the bell housing it would not clear several of my highcomb stocks. To properly use it I would have to remove the barreled receiver from the stock, or put upward pressure on the tube attempting to clear the stock, both things I will not do. I have no problems looking straight into the unit as shown in the advertisement picture, with the guy looking into a Ruger #1. Sold the angled eyepiece. To me, it was not worth the extra cost.
 
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