Blue printing rifle action

L

Larry Wilkins

Guest
For all and I hope this doesn't cause a stir:

Your oppion of the James Boatright article on barrel tightening in the May 09 issue of Precision Shooting.

As carpenter taking gunsmith classes I am taken with the precise points of trueing the action.

So will leave it at that and am loking forward to some interesting comments.

Thanks & Cheers

Larry
 
For all and I hope this doesn't cause a stir:

Your oppion of the James Boatright article on barrel tightening in the May 09 issue of Precision Shooting.

As carpenter taking gunsmith classes I am taken with the precise points of trueing the action.

So will leave it at that and am loking forward to some interesting comments.

Thanks & Cheers

Larry


Whewww!!!

C'Mon.... ANYbody?

Anybody wanna' open the can???

:D

al
 
al

I ain't saying nutin other than I was a wood butcher, now a pipe fitter so it can be done.



Dave
 
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while you cant get away with crooked corners in carpentry ( you knowwhat im talking about), they must be pefect on a precision rifle!LOL
 
I have an friend here on these forums who has been around rifles for quite some time, and you can tell he knows a thing or two about rifles. He told me that he has chambered barrels with the same barrel same reamer same everything except one barrel was on a factory rem 700 and the others on blue printed rem 700. The result was, No difference what so ever!! The man has no reason to suggest anything being untrue. Nothing to gain. I will also add he said you might as well just do it (blueprint) if your going to the trouble. This man has shot a truck load of bullets in his time and does his own work and is a respected member here on this forum. I will leave it at that. Know i only hope that this was the topic. LOL!!!! Lee
 
The there are several questions that need to be addressed before a statement that blueprinting made no difference can have any real meaning. How bad was the unblueprinted action? "How good was the blueprinting job? What accuracy was achieved ?

I have personal experience that tends to contradict the idea that blueprinting an action has no effect on accuracy. I have seen actions with only one lug bearing, bolts that were excessively loose in the action, and I have seen improvement in accuracy when these flaws were corrected.

Let this much respected member who told you this post his own account, under his own name.

A good barrel and chamber are very important, but they are not the whole game.
 
I will contact him. ThanksLee

Ps like i was saying. no reason to lie about his findings and no reason for me to say otherwise. I will always go ahead and have my actions trued up. my smith only charges 90 bucks. not worth not doing for me. but what i have stated is facts any way you want to look at it. Lee
 
First thing -- I admit I have a strange & peculiar affliction about words. In this case, it is the word "blueprinting" when used to refer to truing an action.

Blueprinting refers to a set of dimensional specifications. If a single number is used on the blueprint, the quality control department has to allow some "dimensional generosity," or nothing would get out the door.

One is tempted to say that "dimensional generosity" means there is a lack of precision, but the truth is there is always a certain amount of "dimensional generosity" -- nothing is perfect. But benchrest & some other shooters have found that the dimensional variations allowed by the large manufacturers are too generous, that is, they can shoot, on target, using enough rounds to be statistically significant, the difference between what the factory allows and what can be achieved with a custom (small manufacturer) action that allows far less variation.

So, what can you do to a factory action to tighten up the tolerances. If it is outside the "blueprint" specifications, you gonna add material back? No. You can never get it back down to the "blueprint" specifications. What you can do is take off more material, "truing" it to certain reference points. Depending on how much material is taken off, the resulting action may no longer take factory parts, esp. barrels.

There is a second issue. Suppose there are 10 dimensional things in an action that have a significant affect on the accuracy of a rifle built on that action. Suppose you fix one or two of them. Has that helped? Not much. There is an old formula that I first ran into regarding the resolution of a camera lens. After discussing the various compromises in the lens itself, the author made the point that the resolution of the system -- that is, the photographic prints you make, depends on the lens, its fit in the camera, how the film is held in the camera, how the film is processed (the negative), the enlargement system (if used) and the photographic printing paper and it's development. If you're "looking at pictures" (if you are shooting targets rather than writing articles), it is the total system that matters. BTW, there are equivalents with digital images -- when the laser-printer manufacturer's marketing department says "1200 dpi resolution," did you really think they were referring to the whole system?

So.

1/R(total) = 1/R(1) + 1/R(2) + 1/R(3) + . . . +1/R(n)

With 10 variables, drop any single or pair of R's, and see the effect on R(total). It's not much.

Perhaps that explains why the "smith" who "trued" an action and, using "the same barrel on a factory action" found no difference.

* * *

I have to allow I didn't read the Boatright article. Since the late 1990s, when I renew my IBS membership each year, I write "No Precison Shooting" on the renewal form. Now my blood pressure is 110/60.

There is a strange interplay between theory and practice. It is an old adage that if you don't see it on paper, it doesn't matter. I hold to that. There is an equal adage that if something can be proven theoretically, it is important. I hold to that, too.

The two don't always meet. Sometimes, (my opinion only) as in the case of Boatright's earlier article on forcing cone angle versus bullet ogive, the theory rests on a couple of faulty assumptions. Given the assumptions, the conclusion is valid. But if the what is taken for granted is wrong, it's all smelly gas.

The other case is where the theory could be right, but will only hold if something else is done. There is another old adage: Do one thing at a time, then test it. If nothing changes, it doesn't matter. That is not usually true. Go back to the resolution formula. With something new, some new potential improvement, the problem comes up when there were two things that needed work but you only found one of them. Your conclusion that it wasn't important could be wrong, it needed something else to show.

Trivial example: you face off the front of the receiver. It was .002 out. Now you reassemble the rifle, using the same old recoil lug between the barrel and the receiver. It is .005 out. Would you be surprised if you couldn't shoot the difference between the faced off receiver and the stock receiver? Suppose the the two parts were each off in such a way to partially compensate, and the faced-off receiver shot worse. Is it then a bad modification?

Is this contentious enough for you?
 
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I will contact him. ThanksLee

Ps like i was saying. no reason to lie about his findings and no reason for me to say otherwise. I will always go ahead and have my actions trued up. my smith only charges 90 bucks. not worth not doing for me. but what i have stated is facts any way you want to look at it. Lee



I would like to know what was done in this $90 "true up"?


I have several Remington 700's that have been "trued" and ALL went from 1 MOA to .3 MOA .

My Smith's "truing" involves the following:

*With the receiver mounted in a fixture, the face is cut square, the lug recesses are trued, and the threads are single point re-cut true
*The bolt lugs are machined square and the bolt is bushed to minimize bias from the ejector
*The timing is addressed to minimize bolt jump to absolute minimum
* The trigger is reworked or replaced with an aftermarket unit
* The recoil lug used is checked for flatness and squareness

In the interest of complete disclosure ...all of these trued Remingtons received premium barrels.

In the end, I have more $$$ tied up in reworking these Remingtons, than I have in my Bat custom actions.

IMHO, a $90 trueing, won't gain you anything.
 
Rws gunsmithing. Bolt face action face over sized threads lapped lugs, the hole deal minus sleeving. Not everyone charges an arm and a leg to true up an action. it isn't that big of a deal to do, with the proper tooling, and jigs. Check him out. he is on the net here. He is a well know smith on sniper hide. Does great work!! There are only so many ways to skin a cat, but the butcher can charge what ever he feels its worth. Depending on his reputation, and ego, I guess?? Google rws gunsmithing or Robert Snyder gunsmithing. You will find it. If i knew how to post a link i would, but i dont have any idea how you do that. I am having trouble with my e-mail so i havent been able to get ahold of acklyman, so he could share his experience with all of us on the blueprinting subject. I am sure many of you fellas know of him and also know is is a straight arrow, and has nothing to gain by providing a BS story. I will try to e-mail him again here in a bit, and maybe he will share with us his personal experience on this subject. Thanks Guys!! Lee
 
Roberts 90 truing is a basic truing. No ejector work no firing pin bushing, and no sleeving. However all the key parts are squared and trued to allow the best possible contact, and straightness. Does it really help? I dont know!! I have a rem 700 factory 243 varmint that i kid you not shoots .3" groups with 75gr v-max and 4350. I left that rifle alone. I have had Robert do two rifles for me know. a 6.5CM and a 243AI. Both rifles shoot excellent. Is it the action work or the barrel. My money goes in saying that it is probably the barrel. I did buy a stiller single shot predator action, and in my opinion is the only way to go. It is a better feeling action than my surgeon is, for sure!! I am no expert on any of this. The only thing i can offer is my personal experiences, and opinion. I was only sharing with you guys what i was told from a fella I trust. As far as Roberts 90$ truing. I dont know!! But for 90 bucks I will have him do it again and again!!! I read a lot and i am smart enough to know what is BS and what might have some factual truth to it. I wouldnt share anything i thought was BS. Nothing to gain by doing so!! Thanks guys. check Robert out. He is a good dude!!! Lee

Ps I also have a friend in Oklahoma that i let do all my barrel work. Robert also does excellent work, but he is like every other active gunsmith. 6 weeks behind at least. My good friend Jon Beanland gets my work done in less than a week. He doesnt do this anymore for everyone, so it works out pretty nice for me.
 
skeet-
Are you able to call your shots & out shoot the $90.00 "TRUED"assembled rifles??
If not-reload & practice.
If so-seek other options.
 
-skeet- I suggest reading "Rifle Accuracy Facts" by Harold Vaughn and "Accurizing The Factory Rifle" by M.L. McPherson.
This should explain why I chose to minimize all the variables when I decide to build a new rifle......With a custom barrel, I already have $500 invested.....why would I compromise the launching platform?
If your most accurate rifle is one that the Smith never was given the chance to improve upon.... then how does one conclude the $90 truing was beneficial?
 
Use a tight fitting mandrel to set the action up in jig or bell chuck, face it off, single point the threads, recut the seats, set up the bolt on the center of the firing pin hole,true the lugs, bolt face, and nose,bush the firing pin tip, , sleeve bolt to tighten fit in receiver if needed, check the bolt handle for position after lapping for finish only, r & r bolt handle if any problems are found with its position, and your scope base mounting holes will still be out of line. No one does all of that for $90.This is why Stiller sells so many Predators. Plus you can get one without a hole in the bottom.
 
I thought i made my self clear that i would have my actions trued. No need not to in my opinion. I thought that i also made it clear, that the non truing issue was an experience of another fella, not myself. I do tend to believe Acklyman as he has no reason to lie to me or anyone else. I am not trying to start a debate for pete sakes, just sharing another's findings is all. Dan, no i cant call my shots out at that distance, never said i could. Again guys, I am definitely not trying to start anything here. I will add that my 90$ trued rem 700 that Robert did for me shoots darn good!!! I am not to sure you could make a rem 700 shoot any better than the one i have. .3" groups are the norm with this rifle (6.5creedmoor) at 100 yards. .5" groups at 200. Havent gotten to shoot it past that distance yet, so i dont know how it will shoot any farther out than that. I am happy with it, and i guess thats whats important. Happy fathers guys guys. I am off to a shoot!! I am going to shoot my 6dasher for the first time today, I hope i win with it!! Lee
 
I will add that my 90$ trued rem 700 that Robert did for me shoots darn good!!! I am not to sure you could make a rem 700 shoot any better than the one i have. .3" groups are the norm with this rifle (6.5creedmoor) at 100 yards.
Of course you can -- with the right barrel, chambering, brass prep, etc. etc.

You've given your opinion, fair enough. Most of us have a different opinion. No need to keep repeating it, I suspect none of us will change our minds based on the number of times an opinion is repeated.
 
Boyd Allen, Again i am not starting anything and if you had read what i wrote, i said that the 90$ truing did not include a firing pin bushing or any sleeving work. Why are you putting words in my mouth? I also have a stiller predator action and they are supper!! I dont think i will ever have another rem 700 trued again. For 750 bucks they cant be beat!!! I have a single shot, and they are very impressive, to say the least. Again guys i cant stress enough that I am not debating a trued rem 700 is not better than a non trued rem 700. As i have said a few times now, I do have my rem 700 actions trued, even if its just a basic truing or squaring up. My rifles that have had this done all shoot really well. If fact so well, i have a big smile on my face every time i shoot them!! I am happy with the outcome, very much so!! I was just sharing a friend of mines findings with you guys. It wasnt even an opinion on my part. Acklyman is a good fella and i am sure you guys think so as well. I was just sharing with you , what he had shared with me. Thats all and nothing else. I will be shooting predator action on my future builds. The stiller predator is the best value in action out there. That is my opinion. I like them way more than my surgeon round action. Guys please dont take me out of content. that isnt my intent!! Lee
 
Maybe just me, but your earlier post kinda insinuated that any truin' job over $90 was superfluous and the result of greedy gunsmiths with big ego's.
A little research will show that there ARE indeed many ways to "skin a cat", they are NOT all created equal, and in the end it is the sum of all the parts (or modification of parts) that determine the accuracy potential.
These guys will be getting calls now to do $90 truing jobs, and be on the phone for over an hour explainin' what a truin' job entails.
 
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