Bill's mantra on tuners

A

analretentive

Member
Ok, I've spent a lot of money; more than I should have, because I'm too pigheaded to listen to good advice, or at least separate the good from the bad.

I am tuning the second barrel (see above) on my first custom build. I started with 3 -3 shot groups at settings of 0, 100,200,300,400,500. The ammunition was Ely Team @1052. There was no dramatic difference in vertical dispersion, just some pretty good groups around 300. I tried 5- 3 shot groups at each setting with pretty much the same results.

When I started concentrating around 300 (+ or- 50) the results were good groups with very little vertical difference, and were very good at 290. I'm pretty happy at this point, but I'm running out of Team. So...I try out a partial box of leftover Tenex @1088. The next three 3 shot groups were unseparated vertical stacks. I moved the tuner to 250, and was rewarded with three of the best one hole groups I have ever fired with a scope.

Here's the question. BC espouses "set it and forget it" for tuners; at least as far as I can determine from his personal website ( I have not read his book). I know my testing is in no way conclusive, but it points to different settings for different speed ammo. No? Or does Team Eley have a natural tendency toward vertical dispersion? Does my barrel suck? Does my method suck? Do I suck?

Let's leave the last question out of the variable; I'm pretty sure most here will unanimously agree on that one. I would appreciate as much input here as I can get; even you Tim. Just keep the sarcasm on hold.

Good afternoon,

Gerry
 
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agg

Mine is a whole lot less than that, but I shot a 2250 with what was left of that Team, with 5 sighters, first time out with my new barrel.
Do you have a couple of cases of the same ammo, or shoot different lots with the same tuner setting?

Thanks,

Gerry
 
analretentive said:
Mine is a whole lot less than that, but I shot a 2250 with what was left of that Team, with 5 sighters, first time out with my new barrel.
Do you have a couple of cases of the same ammo, or shoot different lots with the same tuner setting?

Thanks,

Gerry
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Gerry,
I've shot 4 different lots of ammo this year successfully. I have 3 targets of 2400 or better with 3 different lots of ammo. Same tuner setting. Listed speeds range from 1040 to 1064. I shot ammo last year in range of 1045 to 1079 listed with success. Same tuner setting. In fact no scope adjustment for different lots either. I have 2 barrels at 26" length and .900" straight with the same tuner setting of 293. Both barrels sport 2 Scott Group Tighteners and Pappas Noodles with thin washers. Both are Benchmarks but one is 6 groove and the other is 2 groove.

Carp a.k.a. John Carper
 
There are two schools of thought

Bill believes in minimizing the movement of the muzzle which points every bullet in the same direction if the bullets are all the same speed. The other school is to tune for an upward movement of the muzzle when the bullet leaves the crown which puts the slower rounds on a higher trajectory than the fast rounds. Most shooters are tuned the second way as it is about a 50/50 chance of getting that tune by luck and does not require great ammo to get pretty good results. Bills route is very difficult to accomplish and also requires very good ammo but the results are amazing if you have ever shot a gun that is "right" with "great" ammo. It doesn't take much talent to shoot a great target with one of those guns.
 
Last time I tuned my rifle I used three different ammos. One lot each of Team, Match and Tenex with as much speed variation as I had on hand. Hopewell calls for 5 shot groups, by using two shots from each speed I wound up with six shot groups. Seemed to work. YMMV. After tuning, I shot a target using all three ammo lots/types one shot each, in sequence, until the target was complete. Didn't see any difference in point of impact. Don't remember the exact score but think it was a 248 or so on a 50/50 target. Take it for what it's worth, about what you paid for it.

Ken Henderson
 
Try looking up the "Hopewell Method" and you will get a better idea on tuning-just a thought. To get different speeds of ammo to shoot to the same point you have to "use" different speeds when testing. I remember once reading-I might be wrong- that Mr. Bill C took 2 or 3 different speeds and mixed them together and then started to test the tuner. Richard
 
DonMatzeder said:
Bill believes in minimizing the movement of the muzzle which points every bullet in the same direction if the bullets are all the same speed. The other school is to tune for an upward movement of the muzzle when the bullet leaves the crown which puts the slower rounds on a higher trajectory than the fast rounds.
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LOL. Barrels react as barrels will react - None have ever attended to either school. In much the same way that Buggs and the Road Runner don't fall off of cliffs by virtue of not studying the Law (of Gravity).
AchievementsInIgnorance_8659.png

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AchievementsInIgnorance

Bill has always maintained that barrels will and always have vibrated the same way - in this he is correct.
 
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Well put. I think you need to go back and understand the basic function of a tuner. jmo. Ed.
 
I once highjacked--I mean borrowed---a dual trace oscilloscope from work, and put an accelerometer, and microphone at the end of my tuner equipped Win52, to see if I could find a tuner setting that made the muzzle stop when the bullet left the muzzle. Picking the peak of the vibration cycle seemed like the right setting, until I actually fired test groups. Chicken splatter! Thinking back, the logical idea would be to time the bullet when the muzzle is going up, so slower rounds would get more elevation, to stay in the group. Unfortunately, I gave the scope back, when I retired, and never got to try the new theory. The target will tell the tale. Like the SMLE armorers that tuned the barrels for "positive compensation" for LR target shooting, with cork shims in the stock at various points down the barrel in the 1950s.
 
xs hedspace said:
I once highjacked--I mean borrowed---a dual trace oscilloscope from work, and put an accelerometer, and microphone at the end of my tuner equipped Win52, to see if I could find a tuner setting that made the muzzle stop when the bullet left the muzzle. Picking the peak of the vibration cycle seemed like the right setting, until I actually fired test groups. Chicken splatter! Thinking back, the logical idea would be to time the bullet when the muzzle is going up, so slower rounds would get more elevation, to stay in the group. Unfortunately, I gave the scope back, when I retired, and never got to try the new theory. The target will tell the tale. Like the SMLE armorers that tuned the barrels for "positive compensation" for LR target shooting, with cork shims in the stock at various points down the barrel in the 1950s.
Click to expand...

I tried something similar, and came to the conclusion that an accelerometer is the wrong tool for the job. Acceleration has to be integrated twice to get displacement, which introduces error. In addition, what we really want to know is muzzle angle, which requires two displacement measurements (at two different positions along the barrel). This creates even more error. Best to measure muzzle angle directly, like with Kolbe's polarizing sheets: http://www.border-barrels.com/articles/rimfire_accuracy/tuning_a_barrel.htm
 
lots and lots.

Carp said:
Gerry,
I've shot 4 different lots of ammo this year successfully. I have 3 targets of 2400 or better with 3 different lots of ammo. Same tuner setting. Listed speeds range from 1040 to 1064. I shot ammo last year in range of 1045 to 1079 listed with success. Same tuner setting. In fact no scope adjustment for different lots either. I have 2 barrels at 26" length and .900" straight with the same tuner setting of 293. Both barrels sport 2 Scott Group Tighteners and Pappas Noodles with thin washers. Both are Benchmarks but one is 6 groove and the other is 2 groove.

Carp a.k.a. John Carper
Click to expand...

John, when you originally tuned those barrels, did you use all the same lot, speed; or did you use something like Ken Henderson's method.

Thanks,

Gerry
 
TangoTwo said:
Last time I tuned my rifle I used three different ammos. One lot each of Team, Match and Tenex with as much speed variation as I had on hand. Hopewell calls for 5 shot groups, by using two shots from each speed I wound up with six shot groups. Seemed to work. YMMV. After tuning, I shot a target using all three ammo lots/types one shot each, in sequence, until the target was complete. Didn't see any difference in point of impact. Don't remember the exact score but think it was a 248 or so on a 50/50 target. Take it for what it's worth, about what you paid for it.

Ken Henderson
Click to expand...

A good method. You can get additional information by comparing points of impact among the different lots with statistical tools, even more valuable if combined with velocity measurements.

Cheers,
Keith
 
analretentive said:
John, when you originally tuned those barrels, did you use all the same lot, speed; or did you use something like Ken Henderson's method.

Thanks,

Gerry
Click to expand...


I actually tuned my Turbo with Team, like 1008-4xxx @1045 Team. I would shoot test targets with whatever Match I had with me to see improvements. I tuned my 40X with Match, like 1011-4xxx Match. Shot test targets with 1012-6xxx Match. I shot up several bricks on the 6 groove/Turbo and about 2 to 3 boxes on the 2 groove 40X.

Carp
 
Getting high

The first shot out of my 10X-3 Shilen Ratchet is always high. If I wait 2-3 minutes between shots..always next shot high. It's so predictable, that I
now aim 1/4" low anytime I hesitate more than 1 minute...and take out the dot. Never happens when I keep shooting, and the barrel is warm.

Is this a bedding problem, or a barrel problem. It occurs with virtually any ammo I have tried.

Gerry
 
analretentive said:
The first shot out of my 10X-3 Shilen Ratchet is always high. If I wait 2-3 minutes between shots..always next shot high. It's so predictable, that I
now aim 1/4" low anytime I hesitate more than 1 minute...and take out the dot. Never happens when I keep shooting, and the barrel is warm.

Is this a bedding problem, or a barrel problem. It occurs with virtually any ammo I have tried.

Gerry
Click to expand...

Gerry,
I shoot the same XIII/Shilen Ratchet .900" straight combo. It is pillar bedded with Devcon, in a Stith 250 straight line stock. Torque setting is 45 inch pounds front and back. I have not experienced the high / low shots when waiting on conditions. Have you tried different torque settings?

Also, is your rifle tracking smoothly in your rest, without any binding? Any sticking while waiting could change point of impact. John
 
Yeah, thanks for the reply. I'm pillar bedded/Devcon. Both screws set at 50 inch lbs. Pappas rest. Lot more testing to do.

At least it's predictable.


Gerry
 
I dont adj for different ammo, perhaps I should.

I need to take 'blackie' out one of these windless mornings and shoot/adjust till she will wait for me..

I know it can be done. I have done it with 'goldie'.
 
analretentive said:
The first shot out of my 10X-3 Shilen Ratchet is always high. If I wait 2-3 minutes between shots..always next shot high. It's so predictable, that I
now aim 1/4" low anytime I hesitate more than 1 minute...and take out the dot. Never happens when I keep shooting, and the barrel is warm.

Is this a bedding problem, or a barrel problem. It occurs with virtually any ammo I have tried.

Gerry
Click to expand...

If the bolt is closed on a round when this happens, try waiting with the bolt open and no round chambered...or vice versa. I would be interested if changing either way makes a difference.
 
I have a similar problem but it's not with a custom rifle. It's with a Factory Winchester Model 52-D. It will shoot in the mid to high 1's most of the time with Eley or Lapua ammo but after I wipe the bore out the first shot will always go at least 1 inch high, it's not a problem for me because I know where that first shot will go and I use it as a sighter and fouling shot, after the first shot it comes back to center zero and will stay there for the next 50 shots or till I wipe it out again. Like I said it's not a problem because I know what to expect, what I'm concerned about is that first shot out of the wiped barrel is extremely loud, sounds like a Hi-Velocity load or even louder, every time I shoot that first shot everyone thinks the gun blew up. Others don't seem to have this happening with their gun, anyone have any ideas as to what is going on, it's not the ammo as it does it with both Eley and Lapua.
52-Shooter
 
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