C
Cheechako
Guest
Who Me - I used to have a dime like that. 
Ray
Ray
Best Factory Group Bag Gun
- Thread starter Stephen Perry
- Start date
Stephen Perry
New member
Who You
My first Range officer, I built my BR rifle in 1977, carried a group like yours in his wallet for maybe 10-15 years, the target paper was decomposing. He said he shot the group with a .222 I never doubted his group because I had shot one like that with my Remington 722 in .222. I left my group home.
Who, shoot me 5 groups on the same piece of paper all side by side then we can talk about your gun and skills. I'm sure Ray and I will give you the once over about your agg maybe a twice over. Not going to call all you a pilgrim but one group is kinda like protection on your first hot date might never happen again for you.
Stephen Perry
Angeles BR
My first Range officer, I built my BR rifle in 1977, carried a group like yours in his wallet for maybe 10-15 years, the target paper was decomposing. He said he shot the group with a .222 I never doubted his group because I had shot one like that with my Remington 722 in .222. I left my group home.
Who, shoot me 5 groups on the same piece of paper all side by side then we can talk about your gun and skills. I'm sure Ray and I will give you the once over about your agg maybe a twice over. Not going to call all you a pilgrim but one group is kinda like protection on your first hot date might never happen again for you.
Stephen Perry
Angeles BR
Bill Wynne
Active member
Way back youder when I was a 16 year old in 1956, our San Angelo Gun Club had a turkey shoot and one of the events was a ten man benchrest contest with whatever we had. A gentelman loaned me his beautiful little Saco 222 and I entered the contests. The rifle had some kind of 6 power scope and the ammo was something he hunted varmints with and we didn't know anything about windflags.
I won hands down with a 3/8" five shot group. Being so young, I don't think I understood how good that was.
Concho Bill
I won hands down with a 3/8" five shot group. Being so young, I don't think I understood how good that was.
Concho Bill
V
vicvanb
Guest
???
Yeah, why? If you're shooting at game animals the bullet has more energy if it hits sideways, right?
Yeah, why? If you're shooting at game animals the bullet has more energy if it hits sideways, right?
Please explain how a barrel can "wear out" to cause keyholing?
Keyholing in modern production rifles is caused by ONE thing...... too little twist for the bullet. If the velocity and twist are correct, It WILL NOT KEYHOLE, there is no "defect" that can cause it. Conversely I'm tired of hearing guys send their guns back because "I tried 107's in my 243 and the stupid thing shot sideways..."
you'se guys can hop and snort all's you want but until you understand WHY bullets tumble it's purely uninformed ranting..
BTW I've got dozens of match grade barrels that will keyhole with loads that I regularly shoot in other rifles of the same chambering. They're set up that way on purpose. The factory Sako mentioned above has a 14.6 twist that's marginally too loose for 70gt NBT's, when the temp falls below 55degrees they turn sideways. 70 and above she bugholes at 1000 MSL.
Now, if someone can come up with a rational reason for loss of stability other than twist rate I'll be happy to eat my words.
(And no, "I sent it back and they replaced the barrel and now it works," isn't rational!)
al
Keyholing in modern production rifles is caused by ONE thing...... too little twist for the bullet. If the velocity and twist are correct, It WILL NOT KEYHOLE, there is no "defect" that can cause it. Conversely I'm tired of hearing guys send their guns back because "I tried 107's in my 243 and the stupid thing shot sideways..."
you'se guys can hop and snort all's you want but until you understand WHY bullets tumble it's purely uninformed ranting..
BTW I've got dozens of match grade barrels that will keyhole with loads that I regularly shoot in other rifles of the same chambering. They're set up that way on purpose. The factory Sako mentioned above has a 14.6 twist that's marginally too loose for 70gt NBT's, when the temp falls below 55degrees they turn sideways. 70 and above she bugholes at 1000 MSL.
Now, if someone can come up with a rational reason for loss of stability other than twist rate I'll be happy to eat my words.
(And no, "I sent it back and they replaced the barrel and now it works," isn't rational!)
al
N
nhkuehl
Guest
Keyholing
"You'se guys" I resent that, you don't know me or anything about me.
Right, two things can cause keyholing (loss of stability) 1) insufficient twist, or 2) insufficient of velocity.
In the case of the barrel with 5,000 rounds through it I saw the accuracy drop off and keyholing result in a 2 week period. I kept that barrel and now have a bore scope and confirmed what I could measure. The throat eroded to the point that the free bore was longer than the bearing surface of the bullet and gas was escaping ahead of the bullet (gas cutting). That may have been compounded by erosion at the muzzle. I'm not confident in my ability to slug the bore to see where the variations occur. I would like to have recovered some of the bullets to see the jackets.
In the case of the new factory rifle, my shooting partner and I had ordered identical rifles (eight serial numbers apart, 1:9 twist) and I loaded 60 gr V-max bullets at 2950 fps (stability factor of 1.64) for both of us. Mine keyholed out of the box and his didn't. Lighter bullets keyholed too, particularly flat base bullets; 69 gr Sierra MK didn't. I sent targets to the manufacturer and they asked for the rifle back. I didn't have a bore scope then so I couldn't inspect the bore, but I can tell you the copper fouling was very heavy. About 13 months later the other rifle started keyholing and a prominent gunsmith borescoped that rifle and said the bore looked like moon craters and suspected the barrel steel was the problem.
Draw your own conclusions. I am shooting 107 gr bullets in a .243, with a 1:8 twist.
Please explain how a barrel can "wear out" to cause keyholing?
Keyholing in modern production rifles is caused by ONE thing...... too little twist for the bullet. If the velocity and twist are correct, It WILL NOT KEYHOLE, there is no "defect" that can cause it. Conversely I'm tired of hearing guys send their guns back because "I tried 107's in my 243 and the stupid thing shot sideways..."
you'se guys can hop and snort all's you want but until you understand WHY bullets tumble it's purely uninformed ranting..
BTW I've got dozens of match grade barrels that will keyhole with loads that I regularly shoot in other rifles of the same chambering. They're set up that way on purpose. The factory Sako mentioned above has a 14.6 twist that's marginally too loose for 70gt NBT's, when the temp falls below 55degrees they turn sideways. 70 and above she bugholes at 1000 MSL.
Now, if someone can come up with a rational reason for loss of stability other than twist rate I'll be happy to eat my words.
(And no, "I sent it back and they replaced the barrel and now it works," isn't rational!)
al
"You'se guys" I resent that, you don't know me or anything about me.
Right, two things can cause keyholing (loss of stability) 1) insufficient twist, or 2) insufficient of velocity.
In the case of the barrel with 5,000 rounds through it I saw the accuracy drop off and keyholing result in a 2 week period. I kept that barrel and now have a bore scope and confirmed what I could measure. The throat eroded to the point that the free bore was longer than the bearing surface of the bullet and gas was escaping ahead of the bullet (gas cutting). That may have been compounded by erosion at the muzzle. I'm not confident in my ability to slug the bore to see where the variations occur. I would like to have recovered some of the bullets to see the jackets.
In the case of the new factory rifle, my shooting partner and I had ordered identical rifles (eight serial numbers apart, 1:9 twist) and I loaded 60 gr V-max bullets at 2950 fps (stability factor of 1.64) for both of us. Mine keyholed out of the box and his didn't. Lighter bullets keyholed too, particularly flat base bullets; 69 gr Sierra MK didn't. I sent targets to the manufacturer and they asked for the rifle back. I didn't have a bore scope then so I couldn't inspect the bore, but I can tell you the copper fouling was very heavy. About 13 months later the other rifle started keyholing and a prominent gunsmith borescoped that rifle and said the bore looked like moon craters and suspected the barrel steel was the problem.
Draw your own conclusions. I am shooting 107 gr bullets in a .243, with a 1:8 twist.
Stephen Perry
New member
keyholeing bullets
nh
Let me say nobody knows what makes bullets keyhole. Every statement I have heard so far is conjecture, polite word for guessing. Until your barrel stops keyholeing only then you will be able to draw a conclusion as to what you changed to correct what happened.
I am going to give my educated guess on keyholeing because it happened to me in a big way and I corrected the problem. I have a Remington 700 ADL in 22-250 I bought used. I assumed the barrel had a 1-12 twist. I say this because my Remigton 722 .222 has a 1-14 twist and I know most middle size factory cartridges use 1-9 or 1-10 twists. So the 22-250 fits between a .222 and a .308 in twist. Some told me Remington made both a 1-10 and a 1-12 twist in their 22-250 maybe but not likely, 1-12 makes more sense in a 22-250.
After a couple years I got hot to shoot this near new 22-250. I have shot Sierra 52 and 53 in all my 22 cals since the beginning, since I started loading in 1963. Never one problem with Sierra's till I loaded the 53 for my 22-250. Used a book load seated bullets close to the lands. Don't remember the powder but that means nothing to keyholeing bullets. I have my doubts after reading what these so-called barrel twist experts have written here the last couple weeks on BRC.
My problem was with the bullets. Out of 25 shots 18 went through the target sideways at 100 yd. I had never seen a keyhole bullet on a target of mine in 45 years of shooting at that time.The target looked brutal, at least all the shots hit the target. My Range officer told me to call Sierra and tell them what happened. Sierra said they had heard of this happening use 53's in a 22-250 before. They said the 52 nd 53's use a thin jcket and for my 22-250 they recommened 55 blitz and 55 bt spitzer. Both made on thick jackets and could hold-up to 22-250 velocties in a better way. I bought both boxesof 55's loaded up shot them a couple weeks later. Perfect round holes good accuracy.
So see twist was not the culprit only thin jacket bullets. Take it for what it's worth that is my experience a problem solved, same barrel same twist just a little common sense.
Done
Stephen Perry
Angeles BR
nh
Let me say nobody knows what makes bullets keyhole. Every statement I have heard so far is conjecture, polite word for guessing. Until your barrel stops keyholeing only then you will be able to draw a conclusion as to what you changed to correct what happened.
I am going to give my educated guess on keyholeing because it happened to me in a big way and I corrected the problem. I have a Remington 700 ADL in 22-250 I bought used. I assumed the barrel had a 1-12 twist. I say this because my Remigton 722 .222 has a 1-14 twist and I know most middle size factory cartridges use 1-9 or 1-10 twists. So the 22-250 fits between a .222 and a .308 in twist. Some told me Remington made both a 1-10 and a 1-12 twist in their 22-250 maybe but not likely, 1-12 makes more sense in a 22-250.
After a couple years I got hot to shoot this near new 22-250. I have shot Sierra 52 and 53 in all my 22 cals since the beginning, since I started loading in 1963. Never one problem with Sierra's till I loaded the 53 for my 22-250. Used a book load seated bullets close to the lands. Don't remember the powder but that means nothing to keyholeing bullets. I have my doubts after reading what these so-called barrel twist experts have written here the last couple weeks on BRC.
My problem was with the bullets. Out of 25 shots 18 went through the target sideways at 100 yd. I had never seen a keyhole bullet on a target of mine in 45 years of shooting at that time.The target looked brutal, at least all the shots hit the target. My Range officer told me to call Sierra and tell them what happened. Sierra said they had heard of this happening use 53's in a 22-250 before. They said the 52 nd 53's use a thin jcket and for my 22-250 they recommened 55 blitz and 55 bt spitzer. Both made on thick jackets and could hold-up to 22-250 velocties in a better way. I bought both boxesof 55's loaded up shot them a couple weeks later. Perfect round holes good accuracy.
So see twist was not the culprit only thin jacket bullets. Take it for what it's worth that is my experience a problem solved, same barrel same twist just a little common sense.
Done
Stephen Perry
Angeles BR
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N
nhkuehl
Guest
Keyholing
The .223 Rem doesn’t have the velocity to be a concern for thin jackets like a .22-250 can.
I talked to benchrest shooters, gunsmiths, bullet companies and spent hours looking on the internet trying to find out what could be happening. I had asked the manufacturer to tell me what they found also, but didn't get an explanation from them. The manufacturer treated me well though.
I tried to 'reproduce' keyholing in other rifles. I shot the loads that had keyholed in the 1:9 barrel in a 1:12 barrel; no keyholes. I was seeing another anomaly too, comet tails around some of the bullet holes, which I assumed was from a jacket failure so I drilled holes in various locations in jackets to try and reproduce that effect. The groups opened up, but no lead comet tails on the paper or keyholes. A prominent shooter and author I contacted told me that the core had to melt for the wisps to appear and that could only be from friction (rough bore).
The bullet has to maintain a seal through the barrel and if the seal isn't complete, or the bullet exits from an asymmetrical crown you're going to see an anomaly. nhk
The .223 Rem doesn’t have the velocity to be a concern for thin jackets like a .22-250 can.
I talked to benchrest shooters, gunsmiths, bullet companies and spent hours looking on the internet trying to find out what could be happening. I had asked the manufacturer to tell me what they found also, but didn't get an explanation from them. The manufacturer treated me well though.
I tried to 'reproduce' keyholing in other rifles. I shot the loads that had keyholed in the 1:9 barrel in a 1:12 barrel; no keyholes. I was seeing another anomaly too, comet tails around some of the bullet holes, which I assumed was from a jacket failure so I drilled holes in various locations in jackets to try and reproduce that effect. The groups opened up, but no lead comet tails on the paper or keyholes. A prominent shooter and author I contacted told me that the core had to melt for the wisps to appear and that could only be from friction (rough bore).
The bullet has to maintain a seal through the barrel and if the seal isn't complete, or the bullet exits from an asymmetrical crown you're going to see an anomaly. nhk
J
jo191145
Guest
In the world of .20 calibers its not uncommon to hear of folks tumbling 39 Sbk's. Occasionally the 32 Sbk's and a few other manufacturers.
I've tumbled quite a few 39's and a couple 32's myself.
Usually it is solved by a more thourough cleaning of the bore. Not always tho.
Carbon rings and copper deposits can distort or cause excessive friction in these light jacketed bullets. Just my theory.
Quite possible factory barrels could have a defect that contributes to this phenomonom. I do know of two custom handlapped tubes that had this problem too.
I've tumbled quite a few 39's and a couple 32's myself.
Usually it is solved by a more thourough cleaning of the bore. Not always tho.
Carbon rings and copper deposits can distort or cause excessive friction in these light jacketed bullets. Just my theory.
Quite possible factory barrels could have a defect that contributes to this phenomonom. I do know of two custom handlapped tubes that had this problem too.
W
Who Me?
Guest
Sorry to burst your bubble Stephen, but I don't carry any groups in my wallet. You asked to see groups, so I showed you one. I don't get off on making tiny little groups, I keep them on my computer for reference. Those groups are the results of load development for shooting prairie dogs. Here's a few more recent groups, just to show you this isn't my first rodeo.
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W
Who Me?
Guest
Thanks Al! I'm not really interested in match shooting, I like those natural reactive targets that blow up... A.K.A. Prairie Dogs
W
Who Me?
Guest
Just for you Butch, I took some pictures of the targets laying under my reloading bench. The .22 K-Hornet was the load I developed last year. The .204 Ruger was a load development project that I did recently. Looks like BL-C (2) is the winner for this year's crop of Prairie Dogs!
T
tricrown
Guest
Factory sporter groups
I shot a Steyr Pro Hunter 243 in our Factory Deer Hunter Class 3 years back. The class called for 3-6 minute relays of 3 shots for record at 200 yards with no flags. I kept all 24 targets and measured them up for group size and to see where my average POI was. The average size for 24-3 shot groups at 200 yards was 1.2”. I won the year end agg on Xs over a 243 Tikka.
I shot a Steyr Pro Hunter 243 in our Factory Deer Hunter Class 3 years back. The class called for 3-6 minute relays of 3 shots for record at 200 yards with no flags. I kept all 24 targets and measured them up for group size and to see where my average POI was. The average size for 24-3 shot groups at 200 yards was 1.2”. I won the year end agg on Xs over a 243 Tikka.
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W
Who Me?
Guest
Excellent shooting Bill!
Stephen Perry
New member
Have No Bubble to Burst, Been There Done That
Nice groups, good enough for prarie dogs. I have a 6x47 rem and a 6x47 lapua that I compete in 200-600M with, prarie dogs are 600 usually clean the 10.
Stephen Perry
Angeles BR
Nice groups, good enough for prarie dogs. I have a 6x47 rem and a 6x47 lapua that I compete in 200-600M with, prarie dogs are 600 usually clean the 10.
Stephen Perry
Angeles BR
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DR4NRA
New member
Thanks Al! I'm not really interested in match shooting, I like those natural reactive targets that blow up... A.K.A. Prairie Dogs
Who, I like your attitude. Swore I would never post another group on here again, but the challenge was too much for me. Bought this rifle new back in 89, It was built in 87. Its a Mod 77 tang safety, in 243 Win., its been pillared and glassed. Had the stock redone by a friend. Still has the same Trashco target scope on it, I gave up counting the rounds through it 10 years ago, but at that time it had 5000 pills down the pipe.
This first target I shot 2 weeks ago, pulled this out to see if I should finally sell it or rebarrell it, the first 3 groups were using sierra 70 gr, the last 2 were nosler 70 gr BT.
It didnt really like the sierras much. But then again I was using Varget, whereas it always shot best with H 4895. The next 8 groups were shot last sat. same load, just all 70 gr BT.
Not as good as it used to be, but I still havent found a reason to sell it, or change it. But do think I will get some 4895, and load up some 75 gr sierras which was always it favorite load, and see what it does.
Who, nice shooting, and Bill those are some good groups also.
Let the Flaming of my tail feathers begin.
DR
Stephen Perry
New member
DR
Nice groupings for the most part with your Ruger Varmint. Conditions got you a couple of times but overall good range gun. Anybody that flames you about your groups I will personally bend their nose, obviously the flamers don't shoot under range conditions. Range conditions for a factory gun generally mean no flags, marginal rest and bag set-up, poor fitting rest and gun, shifting intensity wind especially in Fall and Winter months. Every range has it's pecularities. For a factory gun their are no hummer ranges and no hummer barrels. Just plain fun and excitement shooting a factory gun next to the hay burner buds on the range with you.
Done.
Stephen Perry
Angeles BR
Nice groupings for the most part with your Ruger Varmint. Conditions got you a couple of times but overall good range gun. Anybody that flames you about your groups I will personally bend their nose, obviously the flamers don't shoot under range conditions. Range conditions for a factory gun generally mean no flags, marginal rest and bag set-up, poor fitting rest and gun, shifting intensity wind especially in Fall and Winter months. Every range has it's pecularities. For a factory gun their are no hummer ranges and no hummer barrels. Just plain fun and excitement shooting a factory gun next to the hay burner buds on the range with you.
Done.
Stephen Perry
Angeles BR