Benchrest reloding equipment???

T

T-CAIN

Guest
I am looking for advice on what the best reloding equipment is for the competition level of shootin. Looking for best in neck turning, neck concentrictiy, sizing dies, calibers etc... I dont mind paying a little more for something I know will be true and accurate every time. Thank you.
 
Not sure what type of shooting you would like to reload for as there is different grades of equipment and supporting subsets for the equipment. A possibility exists that you may be close to a range that the competitors reload at the match there by offering you the opportunity to discuss the pros and cons of different equipment with several users that have invested in their sport. Does this sound like an alternate you might consider?
Centerfire
 
What caliber will you be loading for? The reason that I ask is that some dies are only available for a short list of calibers. They work well, but telling you to use something that is not available for your caliber would be a waste of time.
 
T-CAIN,
If the search results don't bring about a satisfactory enough answer for you, you will probably help narrow our field of answers a bit by defining your shooting discipline for us. There are some very purpose built pieces of reloading equipment out there that might be right for some arenas and not for others.
You also mentioned "calibers" in your post which might infer that you are also looking for the a whole set-up including the gun. This, too, is very broad in scope and the answers given will depend on what type of shooting you are doing.
There is a wealth of information on this site and people willing to share. Just need a few more details.
Mike
 
See post #2.

Giving more details is a trap. The more details you give, the bigger the arguments will be. Also, sad to say, there are people who post here that aren't really competitive benchrest shooters. They feel that a minor detail.

Finally, there is no "best." There is a range of tooling that works. Sometimes, it isn't even the same kind tooling -- e.g., weighing powder versus throwing powder.

The best thing to do would be to go to a match. Anything you see more than 2 of is probably good enough.

Here's some comfort, maybe. Most all of us have rethought our initial decisions, no matter what they were. Yes, that means some are back to where we started on some of our tooling, having stopped along the way at 3-4-5 other places. No matter what you pick at first, odds are you'll change your mind. In other words, the "best" thing to do is avoid bad stuff.

That's why going to a match is such a good start -- you'll not see much "bad stuff."
 
I am not new to reloading or shooting. I have been reloading for my hunting rifles for about seven years now. I am interested in getting into the benchrest side of the sport and wanted some suggestions on the equipment you guys use and how you like, not trying to start any arguments. I dont live close to any ranges. I have all the standard reloading equipment, just not anything for neck sizing and primer pocket uniforming and everything else the goes along with bench rest type loads. I will be shooting a rem 700 in 300 wsm on a custom made chasis similar to the XLR chasis. I dont really want to spend hours on the internet searching for what to use, I have noticed that a lot of the products need additional parts not included with the item and so forth. So I am more or less looking for a list of what I need to get started, should I hand turn my necks? Or should I use a drill motor? Theese are the things I would like to discuss before doing any ordering. Thank you very much for all of the replies.
 
For the best result you will need to have the best possible relation between the size of the brass, the chamber's dimensions, and that of the dies, particularly the sizer die, but also the seater. If you have this, you will have solved the most important reloading equipment problem. There are several approaches to this. One thing that I am very strong on is that you should have your own reamer, so that once you have things in the proper relationship, that will be maintained for subsequent barrels. Are you planning on a tight neck chamber? What sort of competition will you be entering? Do the rifles that are doing well in this type of competition have builds that are similar to what you have planned? Have you been to any of these matches? I think that it is important to attend a couple of matches before buying anything, and would further suggest that you establish a working relationship with a gunsmith whose rifles have regularly done well in the type of matches that you contemplate competing in. In many ways, picking the right smith is the absolute key. When you have done that, you should tell him what result you are after, and let him tell you how to get there, because he will know a lot more than you can about how to achieve your goal.
 
Most benchrest shooters full-length resize cases after every firing. This because essentially, most benchrest shooters run high pressures, and the base of the case will expand enough to make extraction less than smooth. Most short-range group shooters reload at the range, during the match, and cannot afford the time to test whether or not the case can "get by" with just neck sizing.

For those shooters who preload - load all the rounds that will be fired before the match starts -- some will cycle the case to see how it fits. If the fit is OK, they will neck size only. On the other hand, some will argue that the case may fit fine in loading, but after firing, it will have swollen enough to have the dreaded "click on extraction." There is merit on both sides.

Whatever the decision on FL versus neck sizing, one place of agreement is that the dies, the cases, and the chamber must be matched. There are essentially two ways of doing this.

The first is to purchase the dies first, then have the rifle's chambering reamer ground to "match" those dies. Opinions on the exact numbers may vary; currently popular is to have the chamber .003 larger at the base, and anywhere from .002 to .004 larger at the shoulder.

The other way is to purchase the cases first, and have both the chambering reamer and the dies made to match the cases. For example: The case head diameter of the 6.5x55 case will vary over .004, depending on whether you purchase Lapua, Norma, or RWS brass. As you can see from the numbers above, that exceeds the "normal" desired clearance for the base of the case. Well, the brass will grow to the final size, but it's longevity in terms of primer pockets may be affected. (Though at least one person would disagree on this, and it is not clear he is wrong). Another approach would be to pick the case brand you *might* use that has the largest dimensions, and have the chambering reamer set up for that case. Any others will just have to grow.

With this choice, the die will likely have to be custom made. You can order a reamer for the sizing die as well, or you can send three fired cases to one of the few people who make custom dies.

So, yes, we fit our dies, chambers, and brass that closely. We usually agree on that. The exact numbers, no.

almost everyone uses bushing dies. But if you are really setting things up to use one size of chamber, and one powder and one bullet, a solid neck sizing chamber with no expander plug would have the highest accuracy. Most of us want the option to change components

The seating die likewise needs to fit precisely. Common is to purchase a Wilson straight-line seater blank, and use the chambering reamer to make the seating die. Alternatively, there are some who feel the Redding Competition seater is the best thing out there. Several choices now. One is to use the factory seating sleeve, and set everything else up on that (chamber, sizing die, etc.). The other is to ream your own sleeve. The Forester runs a distant second for the threaded seaters, but again, you can get a blank sleeve to ream with your chambering reamer.

There are those who hold that a certain kind (brand) of press has an advantage. Alternatively, many of us -- I wouldn't even try to give a percentage -- feel that the only proper way to size a case is to have the shellholder make full contact with the die. In order for that to happen and still maintain headspace (head clearance), a custom shellholder is usually required. Either the Redding competition set (only one offered I know of), or any old shellholder with shim stock can be used.

The plus is this: if the shellhodlder and die form a closed system, runout in the press is irrelevant. A past IBS 1,000 yard record holder uses a Lee Classic Turret press. He makes his own dies.

Others believe that a particular brand (the exact choice varies from individual to individual) is the secret. I'm sure you can tell by now which side I fall on.

Primer pocket uniformers: Some use them, some don't. Of those that do, most say don't uniform the pocket until after the second (or third) firing.

Flash hole uniformers. Some do, some don't. Some feel a good, deep bevel on the inside side of the case is a plus. I'm in that camp. In any case, having the same size flash hole is a plus, it is, after all, a metering device.

Neck turners: Most do, some feel a thinner neck is preferable, some feel that's just excess work, and all that's needed is to just turn off enough so the entire neck clans up -- except for those that feel about a 75% cleanup is all that's needed.

Powder measuring devices. Most, though not all, short range benchrest shooters use a powder measure. Some weigh each charge, the usual tool for weighing at the range (short range only) being the RCBS Chargemaster-- one of the few times I'll mention a brand.

I don't know any long range BR shooter who doesn't weigh. There is debate on just how accurately one has to weigh; is .1 grain enough, or does it take .02 grain sensitivity? Might have something to do with overall charge weight. The 6m Br is getting popular, charge weight is in the .30 grain region. The .338 Lapua, on the other hand, takes charges in the 80-90 grain region. As a percentage of error, .1 grain isn't much with an 80-grain charge...

For long range, there is various tooling for measuring bullet dimensions. No real consensus on exactly what to measure.

There are meplat uniformers, re-pointing dies... currently though to matter only for long range.

etc.

So much for the tooling.

I hope you're getting the picture. With benchrest reloading, everything rests on precision. Opinions on just what matters, and just how precise that has to be, will vary.

A note on brands: Benchrest Central has a policy that particular brands are not discussed, recommended, or trashed. For any tool, there will usually be more that one brand. If there was a clear preference, a clear *best,* that might be a different matter. But there isn't. There are tools aimed at a particular purpose, and as with most tooling, the proper use it is more important than the name on the plate. If you are willing to do the work searching, you will certainly pick up clues on popularity. If not, there is always 6mmBR.com.
 
Charles E,

I greatly appreciate you takin the time to write all of that information for me. you have definetly brought up some points that I had not yet thought about. I understand about the naming of one certain brand against the other, it makes sense. After your thorough response I definetly am getting the bigger picture now. Maybee I could write you a little ways down the road when I am ordering a barrel and reamer, it seems as if you have a wealth of information.

My father in-law will be my gunsmith, he has been at it for about 5 years now, rifle only. He is the one that is machining the custom chasis for me. In fact thats one the reasons I want to get into competition, I can get killer deals on my gunsmithing, as long as I keep his daughter, my wife, happy!!

May I ask what your opinions are on me chosing the 300 wsm? Pros cons. I am set on short action because I already have two rem 700 actions to use. I was thinking of a Kreiger barrel, but length and twist rate are still up in the air.

Thank you again for the responses, greatly appreciated.
 
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Jerry Sharret,

"The Sticks" in my case happen to be about as far north in California as you can go.
 
T-CAIN said:
I have all the standard reloading equipment, just not anything for neck sizing and primer pocket uniforming and everything else the goes along with bench rest type loads. I will be shooting a rem 700 in 300 wsm on a custom made chassis similar to the XLR chassis. I don't really want to spend hours on the internet searching for what to use, I have noticed that a lot of the products need additional parts not included with the item and so forth. So I am more or less looking for a list of what I need to get started, should I hand turn my necks? Or should I use a drill motor? These are the things I would like to discuss before doing any ordering. Thank you very much for all of the replies.
Click to expand...

Tools? There are plenty of manufacturers of these tools. After using and then returning if I didn't like the tool, I finally arrived at these for me. Here's a start.

I prefer a portable screwdriver for turning necks. This one has the speed of 180 RPM recommended by Ken Markle, the former owner of K&M Services: http://www.toolselect.com/product/detail/Ryobi-HP41LK I have four.

I also use the K&M Shell Holder and Power Adapter [fits perfectly in the Ryobi]: http://www.kmshooting.com/catalog/neck-turner-tools/power-adapter-with-shell-holder.html

And the K&M Neck Turner: http://www.kmshooting.com/catalog/n...ble-neck-turner_body-only_standard-pilot.html

If you ever do any expanding in the future make sure the expander tool and turner are made by the SAME company.

I use the Sinclair Primer Pocket Uniformer for both uniforming and cleaning primer pockets: http://www.sinclairintl.com/reloadi...pocket-uniformers-prod34720.aspx#.UK5Sj2d9mSo I chuck the uniformer in a portable drill when uniforming, and then put it in its handle when cleaning.

German Salazar does an outstanding job of going over Neck Turning Basics. The closeup pictures are great too. Check it out here: http://www.6mmbr.com/neckturningbasics.html

Have a Happy Thanksgiving!
 
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The .300 WSM is a popular chambering in 1,000 yard (Benchrest) Heavy Guns. Heavy Guns have no weight limit. Most weigh in the 65-100 pound region. Mine weighs 75 pounds. It is useless for short range (100-300 yard) benchrest.

I'd like to make a point. There is a lot of difference between the claim of "benchrest standards" and actual "benchrest shooting." & by the way, if there are no matches in your area (Warner or Marble mountains?), what's this rifle for?

Here is a link that gives the results of a short-range group match:

http://internationalbenchrest.com/results/group/2012/Union County/Nationals/GroupNationals.php

Just look at the first data column, the grand agg for the 2-gun. There were 100 rounds fired for this, 50 at 100 yards, 50 at 200 yards.

(BTW, The difference between a Light Varmint & a Heavy Varmint rifle is kind of irrelevant today. I'll bet over half the competitors used the same rifle for both. A second note: to average groups fired at two distances, the inch-measurements were converted to minutes of angle -- essentially the same as inches at 100 yards.)

Notice the guy in first place shot .2111, The guy in 10th shot .2435. In other words, after 100 rounds, and 10 places separating them, the groups got .0324 larger. Last time I looked, that's about 1/32 of an inch.

What's the point of that kind of precision? You tell me. But that is benchrest.

Long range, 1,000 yard benchrest, doesn't give such dramatic results. But it isn't because of the rifles, it is because of the distance, what happens in the air between muzzle and a half a mile down the road. I have a .338 that, when in tune, will fire 5-shot groups at 100 yards that measure .100. Of course the rifle weighs 17 pounds and has a muzzle brake, neither of which is allowed in short-range benchrest. If you ask why they're not allowed, you've missed the point. Don't know anybody, not even the special ops groups that favor physical strength & conditioning, that can sit there and shoot .100 groups when it is 100 rounds, every shot counts, can't throw any shots out, no alibis, with an unbraked 10.5 pound rifle chambered in .338. Or .300 WSM, for that matter.

Now a 6mm BR? Yeah, maybe. You give up a little to the rifles chambered to the smaller PPC at short range, you might give up a little to bigger rounds when the wind's up at long range. But might not, at long range. The 6mm Dasher's been doing a lot of winning, including the IBS 1000 Yard Shooter of the Year for 2012. Who was a girl, by the way. (Usually the women can outshoot the men. They don't have to get rid of the nonsense that they are genetically equipped to shoot like so many guys do.)

So, all the guys here that are asking you "what's this rifle for" are really asking a most important question, if any of our experience is to be applied.

By the way, on gunsmithing. Any good gunsmith checks his work when the chamber is finished. Basically, that is the total indicated runout of the chamber, as measured with a .0001 dial indicator. This is a relative measurement, we all know you can't measure to .0001 outside a controlled environment.

The set up is to measure runout, at least at the freebore in the throat, and best to measure the difference between that and the tops of the lands after the end of the forcing cone, if your stylus is long enough. You get the idea. How close to the bore centerline is the bullet as it lies in the case?

That number should be real close to .0002. Two ten-thousandths.

You can claim "benchrest quality" only if 99 percent of your chambers measure this. You've already rejected the barrel as unsuitable if you can't find a spot to cut the chamber where this two ten-thousandths can be achieved.

Now, to do this kind of work is involved. A good tactical gunsmith will get .0002 say, maybe 90 percent of the time, with much less set-up work. The other 10 percent will show .0004, or .0005 runout, something like that. Does that matter? Yes, if the difference between first place and tenth place is .03 inches for 100 rounds at 100 yards. No for any sane tactical purpose -- or maybe I'm speaking out of turn. I don't shoot any of these modern "tactical competitions" that have become so popular, so I shouldn't say what they need.

And there is another point: most of the people who respond to you have what I've said as background knowledge. Their answers to specific questions *assume* you already know this stuff. But I'm pretty sure it is new to you. That's a great way to get miscommunication & confusion.

Best way to get the background information, a description of the world benchrest shooters live in, is to read a couple books. (Going to a match helps). A book is where an author, an couple editors, a couple proofreaders, a test audience, etc., have all read the material & spent time & expert knowledge to help communication. On the internet it's "Oh yeah," and "edit post" and "I forgot" or "I'm too tired." & I'm getting too tired...

So, whattaya going to do with this rifle?
 
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Well Done Charles.... Well put. "Different" Benchrest rifles and cartridges for different Benchrest disciplines, different distances / targets...

Cain, read the books and go to matches.... Us Lemmings that do what we do cause it WORKS.... Want to be competitive >AND< have fun........ Well...

Figgure what types of Benchrest are relatively near you AND / OR what grabs your interest the most.... Most here on BRC will shoot you strait in minimal wasted Money, Time and Effort whatever the "type" of Benchrest you persue..

cale
 
Well I guess my initial plan with the gun was to start in the 100 to 500 yard range in light gun. Again I have no knowledge about competitions or how they class or any of the rules. I don't think I would even consider competing until I achieve groups at theese ranges that I feel are good enough to compete, and make sure I can do it over and over, consitency is the key, as i've learned in the past.

It makes sense to me that before you even consider shooting at a 1000 yards you better be able to shoot a hella of group at 500 yards. I mean eventually I would like to reach that point, but I feel I need to master the short range first, I don't know does this sound like i'm making sense?

As far as the answers I am recieving, I find them all helpful and can understand just about everything that you have explained. I greatly apprectiate you takin the time to answer.


Charles E.

"You've already rejected the barrel as unsuitable if you can't find a spot to cut the chamber where this two ten-thousandths can be achieved."

So are you saying you can measure the run out before you even cut the chamber? If the od of the barrel has more run out than .0002 then so will the chamber when reamed.
 
T-CAIN said:
Jerry Sharret,

"The Sticks" in my case happen to be about as far north in California as you can go.
Click to expand...

T-Cain the reason I ask about your location is so readers of this forum can direct you to the nearest benchrest shoot locations. The best place, and it is first hand, to find out what is involved in competition benchrest is to go to a couple of shoots and observe and ask questions.
 
I believe that your best choice for a place to attend a match, either as a spectator or competitor, would be Sacramento. They have 1-200 yard CF benchrest, as well as 600 and 1,000 yd bench matches. http://www.sacvalley.org/clubs.html If you click on the NBRSA icon on the RH side of the home page of this site, and do a little navigating, you will find the rule book. A little study will reveal that for CF competition, the rules for 1-200 yards as far as how a rifle may be configured, are considerably different from those used for 600, and 1,000. As a practical matter, a rifle that is built for one, would not be suitable for the other, although by switching barrels (and calibers) , and using a weight system, I suppose it could be done. Inspection of the match results will soon give you the rest of the picture. Good luck with your plans. I live in Fresno, and know some of the fellows that help run and compete in matches at Sacramento, so if you would like some help getting in touch with any of them, PM me.
 
I shoot short range Sacramento, there are shooters in your area. PM me if you would like more info. You will need a Mentor, it will shorten the learning curve and reduce the expense. Once you shoot a PPC you will be hooked. Start saving your penny's!

MAC
 
T-CAIN,

So, there's a couple good contacts.

Also, you might give Chris Dichter at Pac-Nor a call. Brookings, Ore would be pretty close if you're on the Marble Mountains side of California. If you're on the Warner mountains side, it's farther, but not as far as Sacramento.

I don't think Chris shoots benchrest, but I know he use to shoot long range. When we were developing the .30 caliber 187 BIBs flatbase bullets for 1,000 yards, I sent him some & he shot them "at long range."
 
Wow I cannot believe how helpful you have all been!! I am getting way more info than I thought I ever would when I joined this site. Seems you benchrest guys are willing to help out someone who knows nothing about the sport, and these days thats hard to find, so again I greatly appreciate all your suggestions, info, and support.


I'm definetly going to order a few books and I may even pm those who offered a contact.

I know the gun that im having built doesn't really fit in-in the benchrest world, but it's the first one. There will be another in the making as soon as I do some reaserch, attend a couple of matches and maybee even call some contacts for some help.

So again thank you all very much!!!!
 
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