Basic Barrel Cleaning Questions

P

Phil3

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Relatively new to firearms, and am constructing an AR15 designed for maximum accuracy. It uses a Krieger barrel, which I want to take very good care of. Krieger says cleaning after each of the first 5 shots, and then after the next few three and five shot groups should pretty much get through break-in. Would any of the popular solvents remove all fouling, including copper, within a matter minutes, using patches, or do I need to use something else, or be more aggressive in cleaning methods so as not to have to wait for a long period of time for the next break-in shot?

- Phil
 
A solvent like Butch's Bore Shine will go after copper and powder fouling pretty rapidly with just patches. If you follow Krieger's instructions there shouldn't be much of a buildup of fouling to remove. I'd push 3 or 4 patches wet with Butch's through the bore, let it sit in the bore for 5-10 minutes, then patch it out with dry patches. The powder fouling should be mostly pushed out by the wet patches, and you'll be able to tell how much copper is in the bore by how blue the first dry patch has on it - along with black from the residual powder fouling.

Make sure that you use a good bore guide and a good cleaning rod. I prefer Dewey rods and jags available from Sinclair International and Sinclair's AR-15 rod guide. Nylon brushes are also good for applying solvents to the bore and Sinclair has them by the dozen which is the way to go.
 
Phil ...

Phil3 said:
Relatively new to firearms, and am constructing an AR15 designed for maximum accuracy. It uses a Krieger barrel, which I want to take very good care of. Krieger says cleaning after each of the first 5 shots, and then after the next few three and five shot groups should pretty much get through break-in. Would any of the popular solvents remove all fouling, including copper, within a matter minutes, using patches, or do I need to use something else, or be more aggressive in cleaning methods so as not to have to wait for a long period of time for the next break-in shot? Phil
Click to expand...

This regular cleaning program and break-in advice, from Benchrest Hall of Fame member Speedy Gonzalez should serve you well for years to come: http://www.varminthunters.com/tech/sgycleaning.html. I follow Speedy's method when cleaning my Krieger barrels. The only thing I would add is to give JB Non-Embedding Bore Cleaning Compound a try. I've found it easier to get out of the grooves than IOSSO Bore Paste. They both remove all fouling including the carbon ring. :)
 
Barrel cleaning

Yes to JB bore paste, the original blue label. Carbon fouling is very difficult to remove and some of the liquid solvents ( have not tried them all, so can't condemn any brand) will not remove it. As verified with my "Hawkeye" before and after, the JB will remove all the carbon, in my bores. I apply it directly to the bristles of a new bronze brush, followed by 10 push-thrus from chamber to muzzle, wash it out with wet patches of Hoppes, dry, and carbon is gone. Very effective.
 
When I talked to Krieger, they appeared to distance themselves a bit from bore pastes, but recognize some find it very useful. I am just a little wary of anything that is close to being an abrasive, but what do I know...I am still learning.

A question on patches and there use, which I know is a very naive question. But, want to make sure I do not screw up the barrel.

I think I will be using Tipton nickel plated spear point jags and their carbon fiber cleaning rod and a Lucas boreguide. I have never used the jags with a spear point. Is the patch speared in the center and it folded back over the entire jag? I presume so. What about back and forth scrubbing. Any chance of the patch coming off the jag exposing the bare jag to the bore? I was going to get Tipton patches, but heard they may be tight fit in a .223 bore when used with the Tipton nickel plated jags. Patch suggestions. Sinclairs has some in 1-1/8" square size. Novice questions to be sure, but appreciate any guidance.

- Phil
 
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Nylon brushes won't hurt the bore they're WAY softer than any steel, and cannot scratch the bore if properly used.

Patches should be speared on the spear point jag and the bore guide will fold the patch back onto the jag. The object of a spear point jag is that the patch falls off when it exits the muzzle and the rod is withdrawn back down the bore. You don't want to be scrubbing the bore with the crud you've just pushed out of the bore. The bore cleaner is what's doing the cleaning, the patch is just the carrier for the solvent. Be careful when the rod exits the bore that you don't bang the crown and muzzle too.

I don't know what the purpose of nickel plating a jag is, but a straight brass jag cannot injure the bore which is why they're preferred. Jags are relatively inexpensive and can be replace if they're attacked by bore solvents. I don't know anyone who uses anything but brass jags, and they last a LONG time even straight brass ones. Opinions vary on carbon fiber rods, but make sure that it's wiped off after each pass down the bore to keep any crud from being introduced into the bore.

DO NOT lay your rod on a bench top, the ground or anywhere else where it can pick up dirt, grit or other crud. There's no point in introducing any of it into the bore on the rod, non-imbedding or not. Stuff can get on the surface of any rod or anything else for that matter.
 
Phil I have used that set up. Plus I put my rods in this.
http://www.sinclairintl.com/product/5277/Cleaning-Rod-Cases.
I have a Dewey and a Tipton. They are both good rods.
The Dewey comes with jag. The jag is glued on the end. It's easier to have 2 rods.
I shoot .223 and 6PPC.
Sinclair patches. 1 1/8" for .223. 1 3/4" for the 6PPC.

Larry the nickel plated jag is for the solvent. It won't react to the blue stuff in the solvent. And won't give you a false reading about copper fouling.

.223 for Varmint matches. 6PPC for Benchrest Group and Score. :)
 
Phil ...

Phil3 said:
When I talked to Krieger, they appeared to distance themselves a bit from bore pastes, but recognize some find it very useful. I am just a little wary of anything that is close to being an abrasive, but what do I know...I am still learning. Phil
Click to expand...

Here is an excerpt of the Instructions I received with separate Krieger barrel orders.

Instructions received from Krieger along with my Krieger barrel: Break-In and Cleaning, Under Cleaning:

"Abrasive cleaners work well. They do not damage the bore, they clean all types of fouling (copper, powder, lead, plastic), and they have the added advantage of of polishing the throat both in 'break in' and later on when the throat begins to roughen again from the rounds fired. One national champion we know polishes the throats on his rifles every several hundred rounds or so with diamond paste to extend their accuracy life." :)
 
Yes, I noted a bit of disagreement between what Krieger says on their website (same as barrel instructions), and what the person I talked to said. Basically, my phone conversation seemed to indicate that due to the smooth lapped bore, it was not really necessary to use potent chemicals, brush hard, or use abrasive compounds.

With regards to competitors frequently using polishing compounds, there seems to be far more disagreement than agreement on the right to do anything with barrel cleaning. Read under "Barrels" on www.6mmbr.com.

I will probably start out conservative, but there is no good way to determine if barrel is clean without an expensive bore scope, or, using a potent cleaner to see if anything else comes out. If not, I would expect the conservative approach is working. Does this make sense?

- Phil
 
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Phil ...

Here is what the most prolific winner of all time in Benchrest has had to say about JB Non-Embedding Bore Cleaning Compound:

"I personally believe in the use of JB Bore Cleaner... I use it after every yardage. 3 to 5 tight fitting patches with JB will get the powder fouling out... I do a full cleaning before I use JB and also after I use JB, to make certain I've got all the JB out of the barrel. ... Tony Boyer"

Source: The Benchrest Shooting Primer, ON THE TOPIC OF BARRELS, by Tony Boyer, Page 349, upper left. :)
 
Art why argue.
It's apples and oranges.
Tony prolly shoots more sighters, in a match(that is 25 for record. 5 targets), than the avg. shooter shoots all year.
Jack Neary shoots more sighters. Than I shoot record. All year. And he said he was slowing down.
I sat next to Jack at SS 2009. He shoots a lot.
These guys put 3-4K rounds through a barrel every year. Maybe 2 barrels.

I believe the avg. shooter on BC. Does no more than 20 rounds per weekend.:confused:
 
Zip ...

zippy06 said:
Art why argue.
It's apples and oranges.
Tony prolly shoots more sighters, in a match(that is 25 for record. 5 targets), than the avg. shooter shoots all year.
Jack Neary shoots more sighters. Than I shoot record. All year. And he said he was slowing down.
I sat next to Jack at SS 2009. He shoots a lot.
These guys put 3-4K rounds through a barrel every year. Maybe 2 barrels.

I believe the avg. shooter on BC. Does no more than 20 rounds per weekend.:confused:
Click to expand...

Powder or carbon fouling is one of the most insidious forms of fouling that shooters have to deal with, regardless of the number of rounds they put through their barrel. I wish I had known early on that there was something building in my barrel [that I couldn't see] that didn't belong there. Unfortunately a conservative approach will not eliminate carbon fouling. That's why these products were developed.

Here is a way to tell if carbon is building up, and the best way to remove it is with either IOSSO or JB Paste, per Speedy or Tony respectively:

How do you find the carbon ring ???

1. Pull a NYLON bore brush back through the bore, from muzzle to breech.
2. You'll feel lots of resistance on the rod when it hits the carbon build-up.
3. That's where you need to scrub with IOSSO or JB paste.

NOTE from the original authors: we do NOT advise reversing a phosphor bronze brush through the bore. And NEVER short-stroke with a tight-fitting bronze brush!

[As you recall Speedy recommends a Nylon brush; Tony 3 to 5 tight fitting Patches.] :)
 
Hi Art. You are correct. When at the Super Shoot this year, I got a look at my new barrel. The inside of my new barrel. Hawkeye had a guy out there. Doing bore inspections. This barrel had about 300 rounds through it. Carbon was building up on the lands. :eek:
Bruno's had some Iosso. We are using it now. Wow. I thought it was clean.
I have that book and the 2 other books.
I guess, a yardage would be about 50-100 rounds. LV and HV. 50 rounds for record. And sighters.
The guys I shoot Benchrest Group with all use Iosso. Joe has a section of barrel. Cut up. To see the carbon ring. :eek:
 
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Zip ...

zippy06 said:
I guess, a yardage would be about 50-100 rounds.
Click to expand...

I equate a yardage to 25 shoots for record, and the foulers and sighters one might need for a specific match [LV @ 100 yards for example]. :)
 
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I need some basic education on the jags. Krieger, my barrel maker, says refrain from exiting the muzzle. Some have said, DO exit the muzzle to drop off the dirty patch. If I do that, how I am supposed to get the rod back through the barrel without the muzzle and lands?

Also, can one scrub back and forth with a jag and patch? Can the patch turn itself inside out in the bore leaving the bare jag exposed to the rifling? Are there specific jags needed to permit back and forth scrubbing (if even advised to do so)?

If you can not reverse course inside a barrel with a brush, this means you have to exit the muzzle and return, which to me is dragging all the crud the brush just picked up, back inside the barrel (unless you cleaned the brush hanging outside the muzzle). Am I missing something here?

I am very new to this, the barrel is expensive, and I want to take care of it the best way possible.

Thank you.

- Phil
 
Phil3 said:
I need some basic education on the jags. Krieger, my barrel maker, says refrain from exiting the muzzle. Some have said, DO exit the muzzle to drop off the dirty patch. If I do that, how I am supposed to get the rod back through the barrel without the muzzle and lands?

Also, can one scrub back and forth with a jag and patch? Can the patch turn itself inside out in the bore leaving the bare jag exposed to the rifling? Are there specific jags needed to permit back and forth scrubbing (if even advised to do so)?

If you can not reverse course inside a barrel with a brush, this means you have to exit the muzzle and return, which to me is dragging all the crud the brush just picked up, back inside the barrel (unless you cleaned the brush hanging outside the muzzle). Am I missing something here?

I am very new to this, the barrel is expensive, and I want to take care of it the best way possible.

Thank you.

- Phil
Click to expand...

Hi Phil,
Have you read this?
http://www.6mmbr.com/borebrushing.html
Or bought and read this?
http://www.sinclairintl.com/product/5819/Books-Magazines
Mike is again on the USA World Benchrest Team. This book has it all.

Do you have a bore guide?
Do you have a Dewey rod w/ .22 jag? Just glue jag to rod. Buy second rod. For brushing.
Do you have Sinclair 1 3/4" patches? For 6mm.
" " " Butches Bore Shine????
Here's how it works. Shoot 10-20 rounds.
Run 2 very wet patches of Butches' down the bore. Let it squirt out. Now you have most of the junk out.
With your favorite Sinclair brush. Soak brush in Butches'. Sinclair has squirt bottles. Brush in and out. That is 1 pass.
Do this for every bullet fired. Don't cheat. Look in your log book.
Push a very wet patch of Butches' down barrel. Let soak while you reload those 10-20 rounds. Yes, reload. This is Benchrest after all. :)
Push out 2 dry patches.
Push out 1 dry patch with 3 drops of Lock-ease.
Time for the next relay.
Shoot fouler.
Do that for 3K rounds. Buy new barrel. :)
Use old barrel for fire forming.
 
Yes, read the 6mmbr article. Seems like everyone does everything differently. The editor helped with trying to show some general patterns and suggestions.

No, I do not have Ratigan's book, but will order it.

I do not have the bore guide, but have ordered one from Mike Lucas. Per his instructions, I told him it was for the Tipton carbon fiber cleaning rod.

I do not have a Dewey rod. I had planned to order the Tipton rod. I do not know what kind of jags to use.

I have not ordered patches, but planned to order 1-1/8" patches (Sinclair) for the .223 caliber I am shooting. 1-3/4" seem too big?

I already have Butch's Boreshine.

Perhaps I never made it clear, but this rifle is an AR15, and is not in benchrest competition. I posted here because I want the best accuracy for this rifle, and who better knows accuracy then benchrest people? I will not be reloading at the bench. I will probably engage in benchrest later down the road.

Thanks.

- Phil
 
Hi Phil. Sorry.
AR-15 cool. Is the barrel chrome lined?
After getting into benchrest a few yrs ago. I started cleaning very similar to benchrest cleaning.
The Butches and Shooters Choice react to copper fouling by turning blue.
If the clean wet patches come out blue. Let the stuff soak.
Yes, you can use the patch as a brush. And go back and forth. I would only do this after the barrel is really clean. Let Butches soak for 10 minutes.
.22 cal. jag with Sinclair 1 1/8" patches fit perfect.
I think Sinclair sells an AR cleaning kit. For cleaning lug recess and chamber.
The Ratigan book is all about Benchrest shooting. Very good book.
By the way. If you have the standard AR Upper. You can always change the upper. Say to the Varminter SS 24" barrel w/flat top.....
 
zippy06 said:
Hi Phil. Sorry.
AR-15 cool. Is the barrel chrome lined?
After getting into benchrest a few yrs ago. I started cleaning very similar to benchrest cleaning.
The Butches and Shooters Choice react to copper fouling by turning blue.
If the clean wet patches come out blue. Let the stuff soak.
Yes, you can use the patch as a brush. And go back and forth. I would only do this after the barrel is really clean. Let Butches soak for 10 minutes.
.22 cal. jag with Sinclair 1 1/8" patches fit perfect.
I think Sinclair sells an AR cleaning kit. For cleaning lug recess and chamber.
The Ratigan book is all about Benchrest shooting. Very good book.
By the way. If you have the standard AR Upper. You can always change the upper. Say to the Varminter SS 24" barrel w/flat top.....
Click to expand...

Barrel is stainless.

What jag do I need to go back and forth with a patch? The spear type does not appear it would work, but a Parker-Hale type perhaps would. I do not want the patch coming off as I pull the cleaning rod back!

The upper, and the entire rifle, is my design, which was for top accuracy. Given this is my first AR and build of one, I tried learning all I could and purchasing all the right parts, tools, and now, maintenance and cleaning supplies. Below is my rifle configuration. I only included the significant parts.

SunDevil billet lower receiver (w/tensioning screw against upper receiver).
SunDevil billet upper receiver, octagonal cross section, thick walled.
Young Mfg National Match Chrome bolt assembly.
Geissele Match 2 stage trigger (2nd stage 4 - 14 oz). Hi-speed hammer.
Krieger barrel, 22", .920" muzzle, 1:9" twist, chambered for 223 Reming.
EGW clamp-on gas block (avoid set screws that can pinch barrel)
JP Rifles free floating handguard.
Bushnell 6 - 24 x 50 Model 426245T Tactical mil-dot scope.
GG&G or LaRue quick detach 30mm one-piece scope mount (I will have more ARs, so can use quick detach).
Harris bi-pod.

After maximum accuracy at 100 and 200 yards, with 55 - 69 grain bullets from handloads.

- Phil
 
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