Barrel stiffening

[Chris58b]

I've been reading on various websites about barrel stiffening and the theory that its supposed to dampen barrel vibrations and improve accuracy. As I've not heard of this mod before I was wondering if anyone on here has tried stiffening a barrel with a tight fitting carbon sleeve bonded in place with epoxy? If so, were there any accuracy improvements.
Regards,
Chris

 

[michaelthomas]

I've tried a lot of things with Lothar Walthers. Bonded sleeves of carbon fiber, aluminum, and chromoly.....as well as looser fitting with grease to take up the space. Even tensioned barrels. The tensioned barrels showed improvement over nothing when using mediocre pellets. With good pellets....pretty much the same. None of the other things made the barrels shoot any better. They don't typically shoot worse, though. These are .630 OD, .177 and .22, and mostly 12ftlb-32ftlb.

Lots of people like the look of a fatter barrel....so putting something on it makes them happier.

A friend sent me his .30 caliber Marauder with a 9/16" OD barrel that is 28" long. I was expecting something like 10 inch groups when I first saw how flimsy the barrel looked. I took the shroud off of it and shot it bare. It could keep almost all of its shots within the 5 ring (maybe 1 1/2") of a 25m target at 75 yards in pretty heavy wind. The airport across the street was showing 15-20mph. I only shot about 50 shots.....and the scope was just clicked for the current wind, so i was not holding off or attempting to compensate for changes.....I probably would have made it worse. The wind seemed to be blowing pretty steady, though....so that surely helped. I was surprised that the thing would group at all with that thin walled barrel. I guess it was around 70ftlb. I have never shot it since, so i don't really know how it might fare in milder conditions. Maybe something like that would benefit from more rigidity. Maybe not, though.

I've noticed that most all the things that we think should make a barrel shoot better.....don't seem to help at all.

Mike

 

[Chris58b]

I've tried a lot of things with Lothar Walthers. Bonded sleeves of carbon fiber, aluminum, and chromoly.....as well as looser fitting with grease to take up the space. Even tensioned barrels. The tensioned barrels showed improvement over nothing when using mediocre pellets. With good pellets....pretty much the same. None of the other things made the barrels shoot any better. They don't typically shoot worse, though. These are .630 OD, .177 and .22, and mostly 12ftlb-32ftlb.

Lots of people like the look of a fatter barrel....so putting something on it makes them happier.

A friend sent me his .30 caliber Marauder with a 9/16" OD barrel that is 28" long. I was expecting something like 10 inch groups when I first saw how flimsy the barrel looked. I took the shroud off of it and shot it bare. It could keep almost all of its shots within the 5 ring (maybe 1 1/2") of a 25m target at 75 yards in pretty heavy wind. The airport across the street was showing 15-20mph. I only shot about 50 shots.....and the scope was just clicked for the current wind, so i was not holding off or attempting to compensate for changes.....I probably would have made it worse. The wind seemed to be blowing pretty steady, though....so that surely helped. I was surprised that the thing would group at all with that thin walled barrel. I guess it was around 70ftlb. I have never shot it since, so i don't really know how it might fare in milder conditions. Maybe something like that would benefit from more rigidity. Maybe not, though.

I've noticed that most all the things that we think should make a barrel shoot better.....don't seem to help at all.

Mike

Thanks Michael, I was hoping you would see this
I think a lot of what we do is trial and error, but in the absence of any premium / special .177 barrels in the UK I'm just trying to squeeze out any additional accuracy with what I've got. I think i'm going to try it with just friction fit first to see if any there are improvements. It makes a change from chasing after the mythical " perfect pellet"

 

[michaelthomas]

The sleeves I tried with the grease in between were just loose enough to allow turning them while on the barrel. Typical POI changes with a 1/2 turn of the sleeve were 1-1 1/2 inches....lol. So if you go that route.....make sure you don't turn it any between cards. Make a mark on it or something. I suppose if you had a perfectly straight barrel, and a perfectly straight tube....that wouldn't happen. Nobody seems to make them, though.

Mike

 

[Chris58b]

The sleeves I tried with the grease in between were just loose enough to allow turning them while on the barrel. Typical POI changes with a 1/2 turn of the sleeve were 1-1 1/2 inches....lol. So if you go that route.....make sure you don't turn it any between cards. Make a mark on it or something. I suppose if you had a perfectly straight barrel, and a perfectly straight tube....that wouldn't happen. Nobody seems to make them, though.

Mike

Thanks for the heads up Mike, I'll keep an eye on it.
Regards,
Chris

 

[Pete Wass]

I've been kicking around Benchrest a long time

And from what I have seen since around 1994, either a barrel shoot or it doesn't. Those that tease us rarely stop. The best solution I have seen is to keep fitting barrels until one finds one that shoots to their satisfaction. The rare barrel comes along that will shoot almost anything one feeds it and I think most of us have seen some of them. They are somewhat unique and must be discovered, not coaxed into being unique.

Pete

 

[Chris58b]

And from what I have seen since around 1994, either a barrel shoot or it doesn't. Those that tease us rarely stop. The best solution I have seen is to keep fitting barrels until one finds one that shoots to their satisfaction. The rare barrel comes along that will shoot almost anything one feeds it and I think most of us have seen some of them. They are somewhat unique and must be discovered, not coaxed into being unique.

Pete

Hi Pete,
In an ideal world I'd love to get my hands on a premium / factory select barrel but here in the UK there are virtually no options in .177 for air rifles. The Lothar Walther barrel that is fitted at the moment is actually quite accurate. I'm just trying to tease the last drops of accuracy out of it. My mind is full of "what ifs" and I'm just trying to satisfy my curiosity.
Regards,
Chris

 

[therealld]

Making a barrel shoot better

And from what I have seen since around 1994, either a barrel shoot or it doesn't. Those that tease us rarely stop. The best solution I have seen is to keep fitting barrels until one finds one that shoots to their satisfaction. The rare barrel comes along that will shoot almost anything one feeds it and I think most of us have seen some of them. They are somewhat unique and must be discovered, not coaxed into being unique.

Pete

----------------------------
Pete,

Your airgun experience differs from mine (IF you are referring to actual airgun experience). While I don't see full length sleeves improving intrinsic accuracy, I HAVE in fact played with airgun barrels that did not cut it for competitive accuracy and ended up getting them shoot well enough, and even VERY well.

I used to think airguns might benefit from thicker barrels, and did some work years ago to test it out, but I eventually decided there was nothing to be gained accuracy-wise with extra-thick barrels, though I HAVE found the extra weight of a slightly larger barrel can help some guns to hold steadier on aim in the field.

Anyhow, back to modifying a poor shooting barrel and making it good. I know ones needs to try to buy a barrel that does the trick, but here is stuff i do in my shop if I feel the need.

I find selective lapping can often make a poor tube shoot better.

I also find a change in barrel length is sometimes judicious, as sometimes a long barrel won't shoot so well at the power level and with the ammo I need.

A decent crown is needed in all cases.

A more or less aggressive choke often gets a barrel to do what I want.

A tunable weight sometimes helps get certain pellets to tighten up, as does an air stripper. I generally avoid these unless I really need em, since the barrel is more easily cleaned when bare, and those things can sometimes come loose and mess things up.

 

[Pete Wass]

Actually

----------------------------
Pete,

Your airgun experience differs from mine (IF you are referring to actual airgun experience). While I don't see full length sleeves improving intrinsic accuracy, I HAVE in fact played with airgun barrels that did not cut it for competitive accuracy and ended up getting them shoot well enough, and even VERY well.

I used to think airguns might benefit from thicker barrels, and did some work years ago to test it out, but I eventually decided there was nothing to be gained accuracy-wise with extra-thick barrels, though I HAVE found the extra weight of a slightly larger barrel can help some guns to hold steadier on aim in the field.

Anyhow, back to modifying a poor shooting barrel and making it good. I know ones needs to try to buy a barrel that does the trick, but here is stuff i do in my shop if I feel the need.

I find selective lapping can often make a poor tube shoot better.

I also find a change in barrel length is sometimes judicious, as sometimes a long barrel won't shoot so well at the power level and with the ammo I need.

A decent crown is needed in all cases.

A more or less aggressive choke often gets a barrel to do what I want.

A tunable weight sometimes helps get certain pellets to tighten up, as does an air stripper. I generally avoid these unless I really need em, since the barrel is more easily cleaned when bare, and those things can sometimes come loose and mess things up.

I don't have a lot of Air Gun experience but have noticed from what others have done that when they find a "hummer Barrel" in a lot of barrels, just like in Rimfire or Centerfire, problem solved. Now, I will say I'm with you on the lapping. I have recently learned to selectively lapp and it does improve barrels but there is no substitute for those that don't need it. A friend was trained to do selective lapping in the Army so I have learned from him. My point was that if one wants to win, finding a Hummer is the shortest route. Chamber enough barrels and you will find a hummer, regardless of who made it, from what I have experienced, at least. Years ago in PS magazine, there was an article that showed Tony Boyer @ his Smith's shop observing the chambering of 20 barrels. As I recall, Tony hoped for two great barrels out of the 20. Such is the way of rifle barrels, regardless of what they are used on.

I found that with my two rifles, a sliding mid barrel weight was the cats meow and I have had no luck at all with air strippers. I personally believe Air Strippers are only tuner weight and nothing more AND finicky to deal with. Sorry but I don't buy the still air bidness. Great barrels is the mantra.

Pete

 

[therealld]

Easy to find "hummer barrels"

I don't have a lot of Air Gun experience but have noticed from what others have done that when they find a "hummer Barrel" in a lot of barrels, just like in Rimfire or Centerfire, problem solved. Now, I will say I'm with you on the lapping. I have recently learned to selectively lapp and it does improve barrels but there is no substitute for those that don't need it. A friend was trained to do selective lapping in the Army so I have learned from him. My point was that if one wants to win, finding a Hummer is the shortest route. Chamber enough barrels and you will find a hummer, regardless of who made it, from what I have experienced, at least. Years ago in PS magazine, there was an article that showed Tony Boyer @ his Smith's shop observing the chambering of 20 barrels. As I recall, Tony hoped for two great barrels out of the 20. Such is the way of rifle barrels, regardless of what they are used on.

I found that with my two rifles, a sliding mid barrel weight was the cats meow and I have had no luck at all with air strippers. I personally believe Air Strippers are only tuner weight and nothing more AND finicky to deal with. Sorry but I don't buy the still air bidness. Great barrels is the mantra.

Pete

------------------

I get what you are saying, since I have likely tested hundreds more airgun barrels than you, but to be frank, I cannot afford to simply test one after the next in the hope of stumbling on a great one for each gun I'd like to shoot, or for one I'm setting up for a friend. Neither I, nor any of my buds have that sort of time and money to simply buy barrels by the 1/4 gross and picking the best of the lot that shoots right off with no fiddling.

I RARELY try less than three or four barrels on my guns, but simply cannot afford to buy more nowadays so I usually go thru a process regimen in attempt to improve the performance of ALL barrels I fit to my guns, stopping only when "its good enough", or I quit on em, and use a "fallback barrel". I often revisit barrels I gave up on for other projects, and get some to work fine later, but some are simply rejects, fit only for pistols, raw materials, or expensive grapestakes.

Last year I bought about 9 barrels in effort to find a really great LV barrel, and am still relegated to using a barrel basic HW blank I bought 15 years ago (and its not THAT great for LV, though it worked really well at 19fpe).

Barrel blanks used to cost me about $60 ea., and the last one I got for my HV gun went around $400, but I abandoned it and am now using one of my other 15yr old HW blanks instead.

 

[Pete Wass]

I have been fortunate

------------------

I get what you are saying, since I have likely tested hundreds more airgun barrels than you, but to be frank, I cannot afford to simply test one after the next in the hope of stumbling on a great one for each gun I'd like to shoot, or for one I'm setting up for a friend. Neither I, nor any of my buds have that sort of time and money to simply buy barrels by the 1/4 gross and picking the best of the lot that shoots right off with no fiddling.

I RARELY try less than three or four barrels on my guns, but simply cannot afford to buy more nowadays so I usually go thru a process regimen in attempt to improve the performance of ALL barrels I fit to my guns, stopping only when "its good enough", or I quit on em, and use a "fallback barrel". I often revisit barrels I gave up on for other projects, and get some to work fine later, but some are simply rejects, fit only for pistols, raw materials, or expensive grapestakes.

Last year I bought about 9 barrels in effort to find a really great LV barrel, and am still relegated to using a barrel basic HW blank I bought 15 years ago (and its not THAT great for LV, though it worked really well at 19fpe).

Barrel blanks used to cost me about $60 ea., and the last one I got for my HV gun went around $400, but I abandoned it and am now using one of my other 15yr old HW blanks instead.

With Centerfire barrels to have owned at least 6 Hummers over the years but all are gone now. CF barrels cost in the $300. rage and I can't imagine buying 20 and then paying another $150. each for chambering them but some folks have the scatch to be able to do it and more power to them.

I guess I should have been less blunt about what I have come to believe is the only route to "Magic" but it's what I have experienced. I don't think there is any practical difference in barrels between any of the rifle types, either the barrel performs or it doesn't. Yes, they can be nursed into shooting better, I readily admit and have done that but they remain marginal over the course of shooting them in competition. I am currently shooting three of them(RF) that need a lot of TLC to shoot reasonably well. All three of them have spots in them that attract lead and fouling in general. They do shot well when clean but they are only good for one Target card.

Pete

 

[Boomer_Mikey]

IMO custom barrels are not worth the $300-$450 I've paid for them in attempt to get a great barrel.

In the last 2 years I purchased 3 custom barrels with a combined cost of $1200. None of them have been significantly better than the run of the mill BSA, Lothar Walther, and CZ barrels I have on hand.

In the future I'll buy Lothar Walther, or BSA blanks for my $ and any good looking (measurements) used barrel. I've seen more potential for my dollar spent by buying standard blanks/used barrels and sorting through them to find the ones with better measured specifications than most and improve them by machining an excellent crown, 1.5 degree leade and selective lapping & polishing if necessary to bring out their best potential.

I prefer to stay away from gadgets like strippers and tuners. IMO air strippers are a waste of time and money and sleeves aren't a cure for a bad barrel but OK if you like them. IMO any barrel over half an inch in diameter in a .177 or .22 air rifle is ridged enough without a sleeve. I don't feel that they degrade airgun accuracy potential when bonded correctly to the barrel. For stiffening the barrel I prefer a stainless steel sleeve over carbon fiber as the expansion and shrinking ratios are closer to the barrel's ratios.

My best shooting 12 FPE LV barrel was a tomato stake in another shooter's HV 20 FPE gun. My recently purchased $450 custom made barrel is useless and another $350 custom made barrel is OK but nothing to brag about for benchrest.

IMO you aren't a serious benchrest shooter unless you have at least 2 barrels for each gun and half a dozen or more in the tomato stake bin waiting to do their magic with the right pellet in the next rifle.

If you don't like to tinker with these benchrest guns try Field Target... just about every barrel in the tomato stake bin is accurate enough for FT; the ones that aren't... are in the garden.

Have Fun,

Boomer

 

[Jonnyh]

What do you call a bad barrel, something that just doesnt group?

Think its the other way round Boomer they have been grouping at 55 yards sub 1/4" for over two decades and not rested just off the knee with no strap ons.

Most 10M rifles are sleeved up to shy of 20mm and bonded on. You still get the flex at the breach!
In saying that best barrel and pellet config ever seen was 23 years ago with a 12.2mm dia barrel that twanged like a tuning fork. This was a barrel said to be scrap, it was but with one specific brand and size it performed at range the best 10M shooters would be over the moon with.

Current barrel Is made by Lothar Walther to the manufacturers spec not just a bog standard Walther or Lothar Walther.
Even sleeved up in steel they can be poor to superb, pot luck, cut the sleeve down everything changes. The only change is the frequency and why 'Strippers' as in muzzle breaks cannot work due to design being nothing more than pot luck not doing what its marketed for.
Have spent a lot of time in this department and of all the supposed scrap or poor barrels I have to wonder by what can be done it stands a good chance they would be pretty good.

Point about swapping and changing barrels for a good one is i feel a costly and time consuming approach having been there and done it. Last rifle had 11 barrels on and non performed as good as the original which was pretty poor. Knowing what I know now, its a fairly easy approach.

Cant tell by looking down the rifling either, some of the shoddiest barrels ever seen with literally file marks up the spout have performed, its all down to one thing as mentioned above, the timing of the barrel to pellet exit.

 

[michaelthomas]

I think, at the minimum, a good barrel is one that will shoot a minimum average of 250 16x indoors. For benchrest.....it really doesn't matter if your gun can shoot a tiny 3-5 shot group at 55yards once in a while. It needs to shoot a .150 ctc 25 shot group every time....indoors. Of course, it's more than just the barrel that makes that happen.

I've had 2 different guys show up to matches over here that claimed to have amazing shooting guns.....and they both carried their teeny tiny "wallet groups" of 3-5 shots at 50+ to prove it. Both of them were pretty rude and arrogant, and it was very clear form the moment they walked in that the only reason they came was to teach us guys with the expensive rifles a lesson. Neither of them were even on track to break out of the 600's (indoors). I say "on track" because they both grabbed up their stuff and stormed off after a few cards.

I think if the best stuff was around 20 years ago.....there would be evidence of good scores shot with this legendary equipment. Especially since the 10 ring was about 50% bigger about 5 years ago.

I don't think 10m shooting has any valid comparison to 25m benched outdoor shooting. There are only general similarities in the equipment.

Mike

 

[Pete Wass]

Thanks Jonnyh

What do you call a bad barrel, something that just doesnt group?

Think its the other way round Boomer they have been grouping at 55 yards sub 1/4" for over two decades and not rested just off the knee with no strap ons.

Most 10M rifles are sleeved up to shy of 20mm and bonded on. You still get the flex at the breach!
In saying that best barrel and pellet config ever seen was 23 years ago with a 12.2mm dia barrel that twanged like a tuning fork. This was a barrel said to be scrap, it was but with one specific brand and size it performed at range the best 10M shooters would be over the moon with.

Current barrel Is made by Lothar Walther to the manufacturers spec not just a bog standard Walther or Lothar Walther.
Even sleeved up in steel they can be poor to superb, pot luck, cut the sleeve down everything changes. The only change is the frequency and why 'Strippers' as in muzzle breaks cannot work due to design being nothing more than pot luck not doing what its marketed for.
Have spent a lot of time in this department and of all the supposed scrap or poor barrels I have to wonder by what can be done it stands a good chance they would be pretty good.

Point about swapping and changing barrels for a good one is i feel a costly and time consuming approach having been there and done it. Last rifle had 11 barrels on and non performed as good as the original which was pretty poor. Knowing what I know now, its a fairly easy approach.

Cant tell by looking down the rifling either, some of the shoddiest barrels ever seen with literally file marks up the spout have performed, its all down to one thing as mentioned above, the timing of the barrel to pellet exit.

Would you please explain about the cutting down a bit? Sounds interesting.

Thanks,

Pete