L
lead head
Guest
pain pills
Amen on the pain pills.
Amen on the pain pills.
Joe Friedrich
Member
T
thescorer
Guest
By the way...
I forgot a very important person... the one that has shot the MOST multiple shots at a single bull... I can't believe that I missed this guy due to the fact that he should be at the TOP of the list... DUSTIN ALLEN!! (you KNOW I'm right!! Mr 2500!!)
I've been hearing a little bit of ruckus... what's the deal with double shooting the targets??? From a scorer's point of view (being my own), I personally think that if anyone is to double shoot a bull they should get a big fat ZERO for that particular one. I can't count how many times I have scored a target where someone has shot one bull 2, 3, 4, and even MORE times! There are sighters on the ends of the targets for that. I think that it should state in the rule book that anyone shooting a record bull more than once should get a ZERO for that bull and if they are stupid enough to try that more than once on the target, then they should get a zero for the entire TARGET!! Let's leave the practice shooting for the sighters and the record SHOT (being ONE shot) for the bull!! CLEAN AND SIMPLE!!
Thanks for participating in my survey!!
P.S.
Darrell B, Danny P, Richard G, Randy L, Scotty H (sorry baby), Ken H, Don M, Chris P, Marion C, and way too many others.... STOP DOUBLE SHOOTING YOUR TARGETS!! (don't deny it... I've scored targets for ALL of you!!) HAHAHAHAHA!!!
I forgot a very important person... the one that has shot the MOST multiple shots at a single bull... I can't believe that I missed this guy due to the fact that he should be at the TOP of the list... DUSTIN ALLEN!! (you KNOW I'm right!! Mr 2500!!)
Macky
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macky Locklin
There can be only one reason for the multiple shots: to deceive. It is done to try to make the scorer's plug not fit the first legitimate bullet hole placed into that particular bull by elongating it slightly. My question is, if you're such a darned good shot so as to be able to elongate a previously misplaced hole just enough to make the plug not fit properly, why didn't you just shoot a nice clean 100 to begin with? Those that practice this, while currently legal, are not simply pushing into a gray area of the rules, they are trying to get something for nothing. It may have worked a few times, but you guys that do it cheat those that are honest enough to accept the fact that they screwed up and missed the 100 ring with their first shot on the bull.
Macky
Thanks Macky, well stated.
Joe "
Macky,we have never had harsh words between us but i DO NOT like being referred to as a cheat! I have often fired another shot into a bull when i have had one jump out to the 10 or 25 or even 50 ring.I do this to see instantly [without moving anything] if i had a bad round or missed a condition or what. I have NEVER cheated and never would.
If i fired a round that was a 50 and then another to check and it was counted as a 100 i would point this out to the scorer.I have pointed out more than one mistake that was in MY favor. Hopefully honor is not so dead that you lump everyone together as cheats?
And Joe F........you need to think a little before you jump on the "cheat band wagon".
Colt.45.........Alan Fisher
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macky Locklin
There can be only one reason for the multiple shots: to deceive. It is done to try to make the scorer's plug not fit the first legitimate bullet hole placed into that particular bull by elongating it slightly. My question is, if you're such a darned good shot so as to be able to elongate a previously misplaced hole just enough to make the plug not fit properly, why didn't you just shoot a nice clean 100 to begin with? Those that practice this, while currently legal, are not simply pushing into a gray area of the rules, they are trying to get something for nothing. It may have worked a few times, but you guys that do it cheat those that are honest enough to accept the fact that they screwed up and missed the 100 ring with their first shot on the bull.
Macky
Thanks Macky, well stated.
Joe "
Macky,we have never had harsh words between us but i DO NOT like being referred to as a cheat! I have often fired another shot into a bull when i have had one jump out to the 10 or 25 or even 50 ring.I do this to see instantly [without moving anything] if i had a bad round or missed a condition or what. I have NEVER cheated and never would.
If i fired a round that was a 50 and then another to check and it was counted as a 100 i would point this out to the scorer.I have pointed out more than one mistake that was in MY favor. Hopefully honor is not so dead that you lump everyone together as cheats?And Joe F........you need to think a little before you jump on the "cheat band wagon".
Colt.45.........Alan Fisher
J
J Pappas
Guest
Alan
Most of the posts on this thread do not understand what Macky is talking about. The problem is that some shooters have found a way to make a 50 into a 100. If the shot is one that would plug just out of the 100 ring the shooter shoots another shot into the edge of the first shot toward the center . When plugged it is a 100. There is no rule against it because no one knew about it until about 6 months ago. Even thought there is no rule against it most would agree it goes against the the way rimfire br is meant to be shot. There will be a rule against it next year. Alan, what you are talking about has never been against the rules and no one has ever had a problem with it. It has been standard practice for as long as I can remember. You were not trying to up the score by shooting a "sighter". If everyone would read the third paragraph of the post by Macky again maybe you will understand why the harsh tone of the post better. It is directed toward very few people who shoot, certainly not you, Alan. On a lighter note it was not meant at you either Don M. You as I, don't shoot good enough to pull this off.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macky Locklin
There can be only one reason for the multiple shots: to deceive. It is done to try to make the scorer's plug not fit the first legitimate bullet hole placed into that particular bull by elongating it slightly. My question is, if you're such a darned good shot so as to be able to elongate a previously misplaced hole just enough to make the plug not fit properly, why didn't you just shoot a nice clean 100 to begin with? Those that practice this, while currently legal, are not simply pushing into a gray area of the rules, they are trying to get something for nothing. It may have worked a few times, but you guys that do it cheat those that are honest enough to accept the fact that they screwed up and missed the 100 ring with their first shot on the bull.
Macky
Thanks Macky, well stated.
Joe "
Macky,we have never had harsh words between us but i DO NOT like being referred to as a cheat! I have often fired another shot into a bull when i have had one jump out to the 10 or 25 or even 50 ring.I do this to see instantly [without moving anything] if i had a bad round or missed a condition or what. I have NEVER cheated and never would.
And Joe F........you need to think a little before you jump on the "cheat band wagon".
Colt.45.........Alan Fisher
Most of the posts on this thread do not understand what Macky is talking about. The problem is that some shooters have found a way to make a 50 into a 100. If the shot is one that would plug just out of the 100 ring the shooter shoots another shot into the edge of the first shot toward the center . When plugged it is a 100. There is no rule against it because no one knew about it until about 6 months ago. Even thought there is no rule against it most would agree it goes against the the way rimfire br is meant to be shot. There will be a rule against it next year. Alan, what you are talking about has never been against the rules and no one has ever had a problem with it. It has been standard practice for as long as I can remember. You were not trying to up the score by shooting a "sighter". If everyone would read the third paragraph of the post by Macky again maybe you will understand why the harsh tone of the post better. It is directed toward very few people who shoot, certainly not you, Alan. On a lighter note it was not meant at you either Don M. You as I, don't shoot good enough to pull this off.
Joe Friedrich
Member
And Joe F........you need to think a little before you jump on the "cheat band wagon".
Colt.45.........Alan Fisher[/QUOTE]
Alan, with all due respect there's nothing to think about. I'm having a hard time and gave up trying to find where I accused you or anyone of cheating. The only one I read rambling off names is the one who started the thread.
Take Care and have a Merry Christmas.
Joe
Colt.45.........Alan Fisher[/QUOTE]
Alan, with all due respect there's nothing to think about. I'm having a hard time and gave up trying to find where I accused you or anyone of cheating. The only one I read rambling off names is the one who started the thread.
Take Care and have a Merry Christmas.
Joe
J
John C of IA
Guest
I was there and I understand what is going on. I have never seen it done before but you have to be a fantastic shooter to do it. Until the rules are changed it is not cheating. What they are doing is making a shot that would need to be plugged to make a 100 into a sure 100 by making the bullet hole a little bigger so that it is very hard to plug. Or elongating the bullet hole. As a great shooter said after doing it. "I fixed that". Yes I have shot a complete miss and shot again to see what happened. That is not the case here. You have to be a great shot and trust your equipment to do it. I do hope the rule is changed. I had a great time. Fantastic scores by almost everyone.
John C of IA
John C of IA
T
thescorer
Guest
Joe,
You are correct in stating that I have been the only one "rambling" off names. But let me clear the air about that... I know each and every one of those gentlemen PERSONALLY and they know me personally. I was never calling ANY of them a cheat. They all know that if I have something to say, I will say it and not hide it. All I was talking about was having to score a target that has multiple shots at one bull. I am perfectly capable of doing it, I just don't LIKE doing it. Those names on that list are there jokingly. I like everyone of those guys and I'm pretty sure they like me (maybe???) and they all know that I was just being the silly, blonde, fun-loving woman that I am.
Now, I don't have an ARA rule book in front of me, but I would like someone that does have one to explain exactly what it says about this type of thing. I believe it talks about when a single record bull has more than one shot in it, the scorer is to score that bull the LOWEST scored shot. Fine... no problem. However, I think somewhere else in the rule book it also states that each shooter is to shoot 25 shots per record target along with having to shoot at least one shot into one of the larger sighters. Seeing as how there is 25 bulls on the record target, that means ONE SHOT PER BULL. Correct?
I completely understand how most shooters end up with 2 or 3 shots at one bull. If they have been shooting a certain condition and have nailed several 100's in a row and then all of sudden they dump out a 25 or even a 10, they IMMEDIATELY put another cartridge in their gun and send that bullet down range to see what the problem is. Most of the time it is one of two things... a bad bullet or a change in the condition that they missed. I have no problem with the guys that are doing that. However, I think there are a handful of shooters out there that have figured out how to manipulate a bullet hole by sending another shot down range into the same hole they just made. Does it work for them EVERY TIME?? Probably not. But, those are the guys that have taken a rule out of the rule book and twisted it to make it work for them when they actually DO hit the hole just in the right spot to make it score higher. It's a shame. I don't know any of those guys personally. In fact, I wouldn't even be able to begin to list any of their names and I don't want to.
My point is this... IT'S A GAME. No one shooting ARA benchrest is making a living at it so stop trying to make it so political. Blow the heck out of the sighters and put a single bullet on each record bull. If you miss a condition and drop a bullet, then try to watch more closely next time. If you nailed the condition and the bullet drops anyway, bad bullet. If that happens a lot, change ammo. Hopefully your next target will be that elusive 2500 that everyone else is pining for also.
Darrell B, Danny P, Richard G, Randy L, Scotty H, Ken H, Don M, Chris P, Marion C, Dustin A... I think highly of all you guys and know that none of you would ever fall into the category of a cheater. (well, except for maybe Dustin... HAHAHAHA!!!! You're Welcome, Richard)
You are correct in stating that I have been the only one "rambling" off names. But let me clear the air about that... I know each and every one of those gentlemen PERSONALLY and they know me personally. I was never calling ANY of them a cheat. They all know that if I have something to say, I will say it and not hide it. All I was talking about was having to score a target that has multiple shots at one bull. I am perfectly capable of doing it, I just don't LIKE doing it. Those names on that list are there jokingly. I like everyone of those guys and I'm pretty sure they like me (maybe???) and they all know that I was just being the silly, blonde, fun-loving woman that I am.
Now, I don't have an ARA rule book in front of me, but I would like someone that does have one to explain exactly what it says about this type of thing. I believe it talks about when a single record bull has more than one shot in it, the scorer is to score that bull the LOWEST scored shot. Fine... no problem. However, I think somewhere else in the rule book it also states that each shooter is to shoot 25 shots per record target along with having to shoot at least one shot into one of the larger sighters. Seeing as how there is 25 bulls on the record target, that means ONE SHOT PER BULL. Correct?
I completely understand how most shooters end up with 2 or 3 shots at one bull. If they have been shooting a certain condition and have nailed several 100's in a row and then all of sudden they dump out a 25 or even a 10
, they IMMEDIATELY put another cartridge in their gun and send that bullet down range to see what the problem is. Most of the time it is one of two things... a bad bullet or a change in the condition that they missed. I have no problem with the guys that are doing that. However, I think there are a handful of shooters out there that have figured out how to manipulate a bullet hole by sending another shot down range into the same hole they just made. Does it work for them EVERY TIME?? Probably not. But, those are the guys that have taken a rule out of the rule book and twisted it to make it work for them when they actually DO hit the hole just in the right spot to make it score higher. It's a shame. I don't know any of those guys personally. In fact, I wouldn't even be able to begin to list any of their names and I don't want to.My point is this... IT'S A GAME. No one shooting ARA benchrest is making a living at it so stop trying to make it so political. Blow the heck out of the sighters and put a single bullet on each record bull. If you miss a condition and drop a bullet, then try to watch more closely next time. If you nailed the condition and the bullet drops anyway, bad bullet. If that happens a lot, change ammo. Hopefully your next target will be that elusive 2500 that everyone else is pining for also.
Darrell B, Danny P, Richard G, Randy L, Scotty H, Ken H, Don M, Chris P, Marion C, Dustin A... I think highly of all you guys and know that none of you would ever fall into the category of a cheater. (well, except for maybe Dustin... HAHAHAHA!!!!
You're Welcome, Richard)
Last edited by a moderator:
I guess since the rule is being changed, this is moot but you do make a good point. Here's what the rules say:
"4. Targets and Target Distance
An ARA target consists of 25 record bulls, upon which one shot per bull is shot for score in a maximum of twenty minutes...."
But the rules go on to say this:
14. Scoring of Targets
...If a competitor shoots two or more shots into the same scoring box, the lowest scoring value will be counted...
As far as seeing the elongation of the hole for a better score, I have seen what could be called that, but never heard anybody own up to it. Honestly, if there are two shots there, I generally assume that the shooter knew it was a miss and just put down the lower score without a plug. However, if it is obvious that the shooter did not miss, I usually plug it.
"4. Targets and Target Distance
An ARA target consists of 25 record bulls, upon which one shot per bull is shot for score in a maximum of twenty minutes...."
But the rules go on to say this:
14. Scoring of Targets
...If a competitor shoots two or more shots into the same scoring box, the lowest scoring value will be counted...
As far as seeing the elongation of the hole for a better score, I have seen what could be called that, but never heard anybody own up to it. Honestly, if there are two shots there, I generally assume that the shooter knew it was a miss and just put down the lower score without a plug. However, if it is obvious that the shooter did not miss, I usually plug it.
D
DonMatzeder
Guest
If anyone scored any of the targets I shot last spring with that BM 17 1/2, they would have thought I did that most every shot 8>)
D
dj78nc
Guest
Cheating = Breaking the rules. Cheating is having a 6x scope bumped to 12 and shooting it in the sporter class. Cheating is scorers not giving you the right score and not being a protest in ARA theres nothing you can do about it. (not saying this has ever happened and dont think it would but it could) Could it be cheating that an orginazation changes the rules in the middle of the match and changed the scores to reflect the new rules on targets that were shot the day before? (ARA did NOT do this by the way just making a point) There is no rule against double shooting so its not cheating. At the outdoor ARA Nationals I noticed alot of these double shots. Were they cheating? NO, they are using the rules to there advantage. Anybody at the indoor nationals could have done it and i think about half did. I personally dont like it but if there isnt a rule against it and others are doing it why not do it yourself. You dont spend thousands of dollars to go play a game for fun in my mind. I guess there are some out there that do but I work hard for my money and if im going to spend it in shooting competition then im not coming to a match to hang out. I would never cheat at anything to win but im am gonna try 100% everytime and if i feel doing something different will help me win and its not cheating im gonna do it. Now just for the record I double shot several this weekend. I know of two shots that were close to being a 50 and I reshot. Guess what now there is no doubt i made them both worse. That was stupid but a risk you take in doing it. In IR and RBA there is no problem with this because its your worst shot minus 1. From all this the rule will be changed for next year and thats good, in my opinion its going to be hard to make a rule to stop this and still not hurt the ones whos trigger accidently goes off. i would either say your worst shot minus 50 or just a zero. if you accidently shoot it again it should still count against you. Im not trying to stir up alot of BS just dont want to see anybody accused of cheating and its over now the rules will be changed. The End
DJ
DJ
Kent Owens
Active member
DJ,
You and I have shot together since we began shooting rimfire BR. Anyone who knows you as I do would never accuse you of "cheating" and I hope that hasn't been the case. For those who don't know DJ as I do, there's not a tougher competitor, or more honest person in the sport than DJ Hepler. He has scored targets that I have shot for years, and as a match director he adheres strictly to the rules, always.
You and I have shot together since we began shooting rimfire BR. Anyone who knows you as I do would never accuse you of "cheating" and I hope that hasn't been the case. For those who don't know DJ as I do, there's not a tougher competitor, or more honest person in the sport than DJ Hepler. He has scored targets that I have shot for years, and as a match director he adheres strictly to the rules, always.
D
Danny Hepler
Guest
I think DJ sumed it up. Rules are rules
J
J Pappas
Guest
Dj
Dj
Dj
DJ, I don't think you or anyone else who double shot at the Winter Nationals cheated. Knowing you and Danny I don't think either one of you would ever cheat to win. I would think you and your father both agree though, there is such a thing as stretching the rules and fair play. I myself think double shooting in this instance violates the spirit of the game. Just because there is not a rule for the situation doesn't make it right. I don't think the double shooting changed the outcome of the match but it did create hard feeling among the shooters. James
D
dj78nc
Guest
Your right like I said I dont like it and if anything it hurt my targets but shouldnt be called cheating thats all. I dont think its in the grey area or not fair play since anybody can do it and its a big risk. I think there should be a rule. To me its no different then guys not going to a certain range because its hard to shoot at and it will hurt there agg. you could say they cheat the shooters who shoot everywhere too. i wouldnt say that, its the game play it the best you can. Again I do agree you shouldnt shoot them twice. dj
Last edited by a moderator:
C
Carp
Guest
DJ and Danny,
Congrats to you both for your finish at the Indoor Nationals. I don't know the particulars of the double or triple shooting of bulls at the ARA Indoor Nationals, but, I suggest that you both compete more in ARA. That way you can have a better feeling about any possible rule changes to be made. Experience different ranges and see their different conditions. Meet the many shooters that frequent these ranges and most of all support the discipline of ARA. I'm sure that there are ranges close to home that sanction matches in ARA. That way you could get used to the rules and the target and scoring of those targets and then make suggestions on the changing of them. I assumed that you shot a LOT of it in the past but the last 3 years have been basically a tournament plus the Nationals. But that is it. I looked on the ARA website to confirm it. It's like one of those guys racing at Indy or Daytona every year or two and they want to state that there are problems with IndyCar or NASCAR's rules. My e-mail is available if you want to say something that this forum doesn't need to know
Carp
Congrats to you both for your finish at the Indoor Nationals. I don't know the particulars of the double or triple shooting of bulls at the ARA Indoor Nationals, but, I suggest that you both compete more in ARA. That way you can have a better feeling about any possible rule changes to be made. Experience different ranges and see their different conditions. Meet the many shooters that frequent these ranges and most of all support the discipline of ARA. I'm sure that there are ranges close to home that sanction matches in ARA. That way you could get used to the rules and the target and scoring of those targets and then make suggestions on the changing of them. I assumed that you shot a LOT of it in the past but the last 3 years have been basically a tournament plus the Nationals. But that is it. I looked on the ARA website to confirm it. It's like one of those guys racing at Indy or Daytona every year or two and they want to state that there are problems with IndyCar or NASCAR's rules. My e-mail is available if you want to say something that this forum doesn't need to know
Carp
M
Macky Locklin
Guest
To deceive
There are several that have expressed concern here about being called “cheaters”. To further clarify my stance, I stand by the statement I made in my earlier post in which I said, “There can be only one reason for the multiple shots: to deceive.” However, some think I’m calling them cheaters because at some time during their ARA career they shot a 10 on a target and then re-shot the same bull to prove to themselves they may have missed a slight condition change. These people are NOT the people I’m aiming at. I’ve done the same thing. Most of us have too, when we’ve had a gotcha shot that came from nowhere and we were so dumbfounded that we simply shot the same bull again, knowing that we couldn’t hurt ourselves for score on that scoring box. Instead, I referred to a very small group that have carried the practice to a much higher level, a near art form, in fact.
Maybe I’m missing something here, and if so, please grant me the courtesy of an explanation why a person would shoot another shot into ALMOST the same hole just to elongate it, ever so slightly when it is already a plugger 50, maybe even a 100. And, please don’t say there isn’t a Rule that says you can’t do it. It certainly isn’t done for the same reason as the example stated above. So, why do these highly motivated and experienced competitors do it? These guys are the ones who can live and die, and whose reputations hang on a 50 point difference in score at the end of the day. It is often the difference in first and second place. And they all know that second place sucks!
That’s my point. It is EXACTLY for that reason they do it, for that 50 point advantage they MIGHT get by doing it, pulling the wool over the eyes of an unsuspecting scoring team member who is quietly trying to do his best to accurately score everyone’s targets. And if he gets away with the extra 50 points, what has he done to win? Is it admirable? Does he gain respect in your eyes for winning in this way? Is it fair? Don't you feel cheated now tht you know of the practice? But, if it works, they WIN, which to them is everything. Nothing ventured, nothing gained, right? It is still done to deceive, and to deceive it to cheat. Look it up.
DJ has my greatest respect as a competitor. I don’t think they come any tougher. I saw him come from having shot a poor first target at the ARA Nationals in 2006 to slowly and consistently claw his way to the Championship on the very last target. It was one of the most exciting Nationals I’ve ever seen. But, he admitted to double shooting several bulls at the Indoor Nationals. Now, to his credit, he said he had seen it done at the ARA Nationals. He states, “At the outdoor ARA Nationals I noticed a lot of these double shots. Were they cheating? NO, they are using the rules to there advantage.” WHAT advantage? What advantage was there if it confused the scoring team and plugger to the degree that they gave a higher score than they deserved? Is this not deceit? It IS deceit.
I’m not picking on DJ, I’m just using his own words to demonstrate that there are many others out there that are so focused on winning that they sometimes lose sight of the doctrine of fairness and good sportsmanship and can justify, in their minds, any means to gain an advantage, fair or not.
I truly believe most of us play by the rules, at least the rules of fairness and decency. I have thousands of dollars in equipment and still love to shoot. It’s been a long time since I won anything in ARA competition other than a high target now and then in some local matches, but if it means resorting to this extreme to win, I’ll find another pursuit. Maybe it’s time for others out there that feel that winning at any cost is acceptable to give this some consideration or else join the rest of us and have some good, honest fun.
Macky
There are several that have expressed concern here about being called “cheaters”. To further clarify my stance, I stand by the statement I made in my earlier post in which I said, “There can be only one reason for the multiple shots: to deceive.” However, some think I’m calling them cheaters because at some time during their ARA career they shot a 10 on a target and then re-shot the same bull to prove to themselves they may have missed a slight condition change. These people are NOT the people I’m aiming at. I’ve done the same thing. Most of us have too, when we’ve had a gotcha shot that came from nowhere and we were so dumbfounded that we simply shot the same bull again, knowing that we couldn’t hurt ourselves for score on that scoring box. Instead, I referred to a very small group that have carried the practice to a much higher level, a near art form, in fact.
Maybe I’m missing something here, and if so, please grant me the courtesy of an explanation why a person would shoot another shot into ALMOST the same hole just to elongate it, ever so slightly when it is already a plugger 50, maybe even a 100. And, please don’t say there isn’t a Rule that says you can’t do it. It certainly isn’t done for the same reason as the example stated above. So, why do these highly motivated and experienced competitors do it? These guys are the ones who can live and die, and whose reputations hang on a 50 point difference in score at the end of the day. It is often the difference in first and second place. And they all know that second place sucks!
That’s my point. It is EXACTLY for that reason they do it, for that 50 point advantage they MIGHT get by doing it, pulling the wool over the eyes of an unsuspecting scoring team member who is quietly trying to do his best to accurately score everyone’s targets. And if he gets away with the extra 50 points, what has he done to win? Is it admirable? Does he gain respect in your eyes for winning in this way? Is it fair? Don't you feel cheated now tht you know of the practice? But, if it works, they WIN, which to them is everything. Nothing ventured, nothing gained, right? It is still done to deceive, and to deceive it to cheat. Look it up.
DJ has my greatest respect as a competitor. I don’t think they come any tougher. I saw him come from having shot a poor first target at the ARA Nationals in 2006 to slowly and consistently claw his way to the Championship on the very last target. It was one of the most exciting Nationals I’ve ever seen. But, he admitted to double shooting several bulls at the Indoor Nationals. Now, to his credit, he said he had seen it done at the ARA Nationals. He states, “At the outdoor ARA Nationals I noticed a lot of these double shots. Were they cheating? NO, they are using the rules to there advantage.” WHAT advantage? What advantage was there if it confused the scoring team and plugger to the degree that they gave a higher score than they deserved? Is this not deceit? It IS deceit.
I’m not picking on DJ, I’m just using his own words to demonstrate that there are many others out there that are so focused on winning that they sometimes lose sight of the doctrine of fairness and good sportsmanship and can justify, in their minds, any means to gain an advantage, fair or not.
I truly believe most of us play by the rules, at least the rules of fairness and decency. I have thousands of dollars in equipment and still love to shoot. It’s been a long time since I won anything in ARA competition other than a high target now and then in some local matches, but if it means resorting to this extreme to win, I’ll find another pursuit. Maybe it’s time for others out there that feel that winning at any cost is acceptable to give this some consideration or else join the rest of us and have some good, honest fun.
Macky
D
dj78nc
Guest
Carp,
I would love to shoot more ARA but the closest range to me is 5 hours and i have 6 others that shoot ir and rba within 2 hours. All i have shot is 5 different ranges including the barn. Since I agree that there should be a rule about shooting the bull twice then i guess your talking about the protest thing? I personally havent had any trouble but in talking with alot of other people all you here is complaining that " they gave him a 100 and mine is just as close and i got a 50" I dont need to shoot ARA all the time to understand that protesting will make the club extra money, take pressure off the scorers and not pretend that they are perfect because nobody is. and last and most important no shooter can leave the match thinking they got stiffed. the downfall is it takes an extra 20 minutes on most matches. seems to me its worth it.
Macky,
I do understand what you mean i just think your choice of words are wrong. its one thing to push the rules to the edge which in every sport or competition people are going to do but i dont think the word cheater can be said unless someone actually cheats. i did shoot several more then once and like i said about half the people there did too. we were asked not to do it on sunday and i think most didnt. my thing is i seen it happen in st louis i did it 3 months later at the barn then after the fact im a cheater now and in the end it hurt me to do it. its not right for something to be legal then tell the ones doing it that they are cheating. when i noticed it in st louis i thought surely everybody that shoots ara must do this because i noticed it and havent shot but one other match this year. i thought ara's view on it was if you have the ba*** to try it then fine. this is my last post on this i dont need to go back and forth just wanted to voice my opinion. the rules are being changed for it so we should never have this problem again. ill keep shooting no matter what happens with the rules.
dj
I would love to shoot more ARA but the closest range to me is 5 hours and i have 6 others that shoot ir and rba within 2 hours. All i have shot is 5 different ranges including the barn. Since I agree that there should be a rule about shooting the bull twice then i guess your talking about the protest thing? I personally havent had any trouble but in talking with alot of other people all you here is complaining that " they gave him a 100 and mine is just as close and i got a 50" I dont need to shoot ARA all the time to understand that protesting will make the club extra money, take pressure off the scorers and not pretend that they are perfect because nobody is. and last and most important no shooter can leave the match thinking they got stiffed. the downfall is it takes an extra 20 minutes on most matches. seems to me its worth it.
Macky,
I do understand what you mean i just think your choice of words are wrong. its one thing to push the rules to the edge which in every sport or competition people are going to do but i dont think the word cheater can be said unless someone actually cheats. i did shoot several more then once and like i said about half the people there did too. we were asked not to do it on sunday and i think most didnt. my thing is i seen it happen in st louis i did it 3 months later at the barn then after the fact im a cheater now and in the end it hurt me to do it. its not right for something to be legal then tell the ones doing it that they are cheating. when i noticed it in st louis i thought surely everybody that shoots ara must do this because i noticed it and havent shot but one other match this year. i thought ara's view on it was if you have the ba*** to try it then fine. this is my last post on this i dont need to go back and forth just wanted to voice my opinion. the rules are being changed for it so we should never have this problem again. ill keep shooting no matter what happens with the rules.
dj
T
thescorer
Guest
What?!?
Ummm.... HUH? Why do something that you don't like if it's not necessary?
I'm not picking for a fight... just don't really understand that.
Ummm.... HUH? Why do something that you don't like if it's not necessary?
I'm not picking for a fight... just don't really understand that.
D
Doug
Guest
Scoreer,
I think you are right when you said you do not understand!
My guess there are a lot of people in the same boat as you but my undersatnding is that next year it will be a mute point along with "I See Blue".
I think you are right when you said you do not understand!
My guess there are a lot of people in the same boat as you but my undersatnding is that next year it will be a mute point along with "I See Blue".