Anyone else ever had this happen?

[mturner]

This target is fairly typical of the past two seasons that I have been having in BR. I fired 2 shots on the sighter , and was already concerned about the spread, because I didn't see a condition that would have caused that. I then moved up and shot my five shot group. Notice how the four and one group resembles the 2 shot group on the bottom. Again I didn't see anything in the condition. I know I could have missed something, especially considering the 10/4 angle that is present top and bottom. I did notice before changing my front bag that the rifle would torque CCW in bag, and not set all the way back down in the bag unless I reseated it between shots. I did not realize this was happening in the match. At one time I though it might be the scope, but that doesn't seem to be the case. The front bag that I went back to does have taller ears, is made of leather, and deals with the torqueing much better. I'm hoping that was the problem. I haven't had a chance to get back to the range since I made the change. All attached pictures are of the same target.

Michael

 

[macflyboy]

Same problem

For about the last two seasons I have had the same issue, I believe it has something to do with the rear bag not absorbing the recoil consistently. I think my rear bag has packed down hard and will no longer absorb. Just a theory, I think I've tried fixing everything else! I would believe that it would be even tougher with a .30! A lot of good old shooters are bag squeezers! Hope you get it figured out > good luck.

MAC

 

[Wilbur]

Don't know

Haven't a clue of the problem or the solution. Fought this same thing for a whole season and the problem vanished as suddenly as it appeared.

 

[Boyd Allen]

Why not borrow a bag and rest setup from someone, with a similar shooting style, who is not having the problem, and see if the problem persists? How did you eliminate the scope as a potential source?

 

[SGJennings]

Shoot the same rifle/load in someone else's setup that doesn't have the problem.

Have a consistent shooter shoot your rifle/load in both your setup and in theirs.

Both of you shoot the rifle/load in both setups with a different scope.

Problem: finding the other shooter/setup.

 

[mturner]

I swapped scopes. Both scopes have a locked reticle. Both rifles started acting this way about the same time. That's why I think the change of my front bag may have started the problem. I did shoot a low .2 agg in LV100 late 2011 that gave me a 3rd place finish, so I guess the problem hasn't been around as long as I thought. I was thinking that I had done that in late 2010. maybe my only real bad year was 2012. Before I switched the front bag, I had entered my HV 30-30 in the 10 shot unlimited match. I did manage to shoot a couple of low .5" groups at 200 yards. Not too bad for 10 shots at 200 yards. I placed around 10th out of 20 shooters. Before this problem cropped up with both rifles, I had a problem with the LV, but that turned out to be a bedding problem for sure. The bedding had completely released in the back 4 to 5 inches and was covered with bore solvent. I think I rebedded it right before that 3rd place finish. I just really need to get back to the range and get that bag testing done.

I have always focused on quality and precision. The problem is that sometimes I get busy and don't spend enough time maintaining my equipment. When asked how long it had been since I re-bedded my rifle, I said that I hadn't ever re-bedded it. I built the rifle in early 2000. Most of the guys recommended re-bedding every 2 to 3 years. Some shooter also recommend re-crowning the barrel. I pretty much never have, unless I put a lathe center in the muzzle. This year I will try to focus more on little problems that may have sneaked up on me.

Michael

 

[bryan]

Which shot went out?

Was it the first shot on record, or is it totally random?
Bryan

 

[Pete Wass]

I had the same problem and chased it for a year or more - - -

What I found the problem to be was the front action screw didn't have long enough thread on it. Once I added two threads to the screw, the "old Girl" came back to grouping again. I think bedding shrinks over time and in my case, the dern screw thread was bottoming out before it drew the action down into the bedding. If you have a glue in, you might want to thump the barrel a bit whist holding onto the stock. I have observed a number of guns, over the years, come about half un-glued, eventually coming all the way loose. Once glued back, they shot the very best again. They don't shoot worth a dern if they are loose in the bedding.

From my experience, if grouping is erratic, there is likely something loose - - or the scope is bad - often not the case though

 

[Chism G]

Glue in

Pete..What response are you looking for when you thump the barrel while holding the Stock. I'm trying to locate the source of a problem that I think I have.



Glenn

 

[Pete Wass]

Pete..What response are you looking for when you thump the barrel while holding the Stock. I'm trying to locate the source of a problem that I think I have.



Glenn

If, say, the bedding has come partially un-glued from the action this might show itself or finish loosening what glue is left holding - might be able to feel or see something. The ones I have seen come un-glued came out the rest of the way without out much persuading. In the case of Pillars, this is a more difficult situation. Like I said, I chased mine for a year or more before I found the problem. Problem like these always seem to be simple stupid once one finds them. Another area to check might be the barrel to action fit. I have had a situation where the threads bound up just before they tightened to the action face. I have also seen shoulders that were not perpendicular to the action face. Have a shooting mate who had the not being perpendicular issue last season- stuff happens, even at the nicest parties.

 

[Chism G]

Thanks Pete. Trying to diagnose some of these perceived problems is like looking for a needle in a hay stack.


Glenn

 

[Bill Dorsey]

Troubleshoot everything you can.....strip the bolt and check for metal like a piece from a pierced primer or other crud.

Check for a bent or rubbing firing pin in the bolt body.

Check firing spring tension....to little causes ignition problems and will do the 4 and 1 thing.

You mentioned your scope is frozen....check for loose or bottoming out mounting screws.

Is your trigger dirty???? Flush it with lighter fluid to clean it if it is.

How about carbon buildup in your chamber????

Another posssible cause is an inclusion in your barrel.

Bad crown will cause 4 and 1 too.

Lots of choices and lots of cures.

 

[Charles E]

Could be wrong, but I had gotten the impression from your other post that this pattern was happening on more than one rifle. Otherwise, what Bill Dorsey said.

Don't believe you've given us the frequency of the pattern..Once every 5 shots? Once an agg (25 shots)? Once a match (100 shots). I know any of these will ruin your day, but it helps in diagnosis.

If it is more than one rifle, and as I seem to remember, you've been through bullets, powder & primers, then next step would be, as you're doing, check the rest setup. It wouldn't be the worst idea to go to sandbags only -- can't shoot as fast or as small, perhaps, but that's not diagnostically relevant.

Beyond that, a bad habit might have crept in regarding holding the rifle. It's happened to me. Sometimes I keep my shoulder tense, usually I relax it before pressing the trigger. Shows on paper. Or, even with a 2-ounce trigger, you can throw shots. Or hand pressure variations, esp. on the wrist of the stock.

Again, if the pattern is once every 5 shots or so, have someone else shoot the rifle. That's not really viable if it's once per 100 shots...

 

[skeetlee]

What comes to my mind first is gun handeling. Like Charles was saying it doesnt take much. If your sure its not that then i would have to guess your bags are causing the issue? All just a guess of course!! To hot of a load will cause double grouping also. Good luck man, i hope you get it all figured out!!!! Lee

 

[mturner]

Been Away

I just got back from Raton, so I haven't been following the thread. Bryan, many times it will be my last shot. Sometimes it's my first. Pete, I do have a glue-in. About two years ago I had to re-bed because I had exactly what you are talking about. The bedding had broken loose from the rear tang, all the way forward for a bout 4". This was causing about 5/8" of vertical that could not be tuned out. Before I re-bedded the action, I put in one of my 6PPC barrels, and actually shot a match. The problem still existed, but because of the lower recoil, I only had about 3/8" of vertical that I could not tune out. Charles, this does happen almost every group, and yes it is with both rifles. That is why I'm looking into bag issues. I only shot one group in the .2" range all weekend. Normally, my goal is 2 or 3 groups in the .1" range per agg., and normally that's what I get when I'm shooting well. Bill, I will go down your list checking everything. I have been considering recrowning my barrels. I have checked all my barrels with a borescope, and they look good. One barrel did have a copper flake in the corner of the groove at the throat. It took a lot of brushing with copper solvent to get it removed. I will check my bolts and trigger.

Raton didn't go so well. I shot the worst I ever have. I did shoot a lot of 4 and 1's, but in most cases I was able to blame it on not paying close attention to the flags. I had a hard time concentrating because I blew my back out on the way to the match. It hurt so bad, that I had to crawl to the shower each morning. I also had to get my wife to put on my shoes and tie them. I only survived it by taking 1000mg doses of ibuprofen. When I got home, I couldn't get out of the truck for 5 minutes or so. I hate getting old. I was warned as a teenager that I would do damage to my back from too much heavy lifting, but like most of us, I thought I was invincible.

Michael