Anatomy of a chamber

shinny

Shinny
As I am new to this sport, am totally confused :confused: by some termonology about chambers. E.G.: Headspace, Free Bore etc., and was wondering if anyone has a anatomical drawing, w/descriptions, of a chamber.

If not, does anyone know where I could find such a thing?

If so, would you mind sharing it with me.
 
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Shinny ...

I believe I got the below attachment from our friends at Hornady but I'm not absolutely sure. Art :)
 

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Shinny

Some of the common terms used in Benchrest:

Chamber Body: This is the portion of the chamber that holds the pressure by containing the expanding body of the brass case as it seals against the chamber walls.

Chamber Shoulder: This is the portion of the chamber that acts as a positive stop as the case seats when the bolt closes.

Chamber Neck: This is the part of the chamber that helps align the bullet in the chambered round with the lands and grooves in the barrel. In Benchrest Rifles, we keep the overall neck clearance at just enough to allow for a consistant bullet release, but not so loose as to overwork the brass as it expands. Most Benchrest Shooters will use around .0015 to .002 loaded round to chamber neck clearance when the case is chambered. Of course, to establish such close tolerances, we actually turn the OD of the neck so trhat it is consistant in it's wall thickness.

Chamber freebore: Sometimes called "throat length", this is the small distance between where the neck ends and the lands begin. It can be anywhere from "zero" to way out there. The most common throat lengths use in 100-200 yard Benchrest are between .020 and .070. The throat length that many shooters use is determined by the bullet chosen and where the shooter wants the base of the bullet to end up in the neck of a loaded round.

Lead: This is the tapered portion of the chamber, after the freebore, that allows the bullet to have a smooth transition into the lands. 1.5 degrees is probably the most popular, but some shooters use varied angles that they believe works for them.

Headspace: This is actually a measurement established by The Small Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers Institute, (SAAMI), that determines where the positive stop in the chamber should be. By positive stop, I mean how far into the chamber a loaded case goes. It is the distance from the boltface to a line that is pretty much 1/2 way down the shoulder in a typical rimless bottleneck case. In a rimmed case, it is the distance between the breech block or boltface to the face of the barrel. In a belted magnum, it is the distance from the boltface to the inside of the counterbore that encases the belt. In a straightwall pistol case with a rebated rim, it is the distance from the breech block to the end of the chamber. Keep in mind, it is a measurement that is established world wide so that a Rifle or Pistol built in one part of the world can chamber and safely shoot ammunition that is perhaps manufactured years before and thousands of miles away.
To Benchrest Shooters, what we usually mean by "headspace" is the distance between the face of the loaded round and the bolt face. The reason we do this is because many Benchrest Chambers are not "standard". But, keep in mind, once we fireform our cases into our chamber, we can establish the 'headspace' at any distance we wish. Most Benchrest Shooters adjust their sizing die so that when the case comes out, there will be around .001 clearance between the face of the case and the face of the bolt. Technically, this is not "Headspace", it is head distance. Many even get their panties all in a wad when we call it "headspace" But, we have sort of "bastardized" the term for our own needs.

Hope this helps..........jackie
 
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Most Benchrest Shooters adjust their sizing die so that when the case comes out, there will be around .001 clearance between the face of the case and the face of the bolt. Technically, this is not "Headspace", it is head distance. Many even get their panties all in a wad when we call it "headspace" But, we have sort of "bastardized" the term for our own needs.

Hope this helps..........jackie


or head clearance, not headspace.
 
or head clearance, not headspace.

Or "headspace"..... :) ..... this is a term that's been in use for over 100yrs to describe the amount of fore and aft play in the chamber. I see no reason to change it.

If Mr Shinny takes it upon himself to read any of the hundreds of books and manuals on the subject the term he will encounter is headspace. and the gauges relevant to measuring same are called "headspace gauges," commonly designated "Go," No-Go," and "Field."

Here are some links which may be helpful.

http://www.rifleshootermag.com/gunsmithing/headspace_0612/

http://www.gunnersden.com/index.htm.rifles.html

http://www.fulton-armory.com/JPGs/Chamber2.jpg

hth

al
 
Or "headspace"..... :) ..... this is a term that's been in use for over 100yrs to describe the amount of fore and aft play in the chamber. I see no reason to change it.

If Mr Shinny takes it upon himself to read any of the hundreds of books and manuals on the subject the term he will encounter is headspace. and the gauges relevant to measuring same are called "headspace gauges," commonly designated "Go," No-Go," and "Field."

Here are some links which may be helpful.

http://www.rifleshootermag.com/gunsmithing/headspace_0612/

http://www.gunnersden.com/index.htm.rifles.html

http://www.fulton-armory.com/JPGs/Chamber2.jpg

hth

al

not so al...
and since the gentleman has no preconceived ideas , why contaminated him with bad info ?

its strange that you pick commercial sites (and one fulton armory is a joke) and not the industry STANDARD, SAAMI.

just because someone has used a term wrong for years, does not make it correct.
from saami's glossary:
HEAD
The end of the cartridge case in which the primer or priming is inserted and the surface upon which the headstamp identification is imprinted.


HEAD CLEARANCE
The distance between the head of a fully seated cartridge or shell and the face of the breech bolt when the action is in the closed position. Commonly confused with headspace.

HEADSPACE
The distance from the face of the closed breech of a firearm to the surface in the chamber on which the cartridge case seats.


HEADSPACE GAGE
A device used in a firearm to determine the distance between the breech face and the chamber surface on which the cartridge seats. Also called Breeching Plug.

i will not participate in a pissing contest on this subject. we have an industry standard, it is published and it is only stupidity to use poor terminology when introducing new people to the subject.

mike in co
 
al

Consider yourself officially lectured and admonished. :cool:

Welcome to my world.;):)

Ray
 
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shinny

Aren't you glad you asked the question? :eek:

The terms used to describe a cartridge or the chamber it's fired in have evolved over the years. Some, such as headspace, go back to the very beginnings when all cartridges were rimmed, the rim was called the head, therefore the term headspace.

Many have been bastardized and some terms that are clearly incorrect have become so common in use that they are now considered to be correct. The Internet is a wondereful thing but it hasn't helped, in fact it has made it worse since every user has a belly button and an opinion.

Since, as a shooter, you'll be dealing with chambers and chamber reamers, I'd suggest that you use the terms as the reamer grinders use them. Get a chamber print from someone, or call one of the premier grinders such as Dave Kiff and ask him for a road map. Use the terms that they use and you won't go wrong.

JMHO

Ray
 
Alinwa

you have been corrected by the best computer shooter on the internet. Enjoy it. I feel sorry for the new shooters on this forum actually looking for help. New Shooters don't be discouraged this is the best place for info when you learn who's posts to read.

Marty:)
 
.

Since, as a shooter, you'll be dealing with chambers and chamber reamers, I'd suggest that you use the terms as the reamer grinders use them. Get a chamber print from someone, or call one of the premier grinders such as Dave Kiff and ask him for a road map. Use the terms that they use and you won't go wrong.

JMHO

Ray


lol

ray.
i tried that method too.....

dave's reamer terminology and that of other reamer grinders are not consistant, and sometimes in conflict with each other..

ya have a good day

mike in co
 
Anatomy of a Chamber

I believe I got the below attachment from our friends at Hornady but I'm not absolutely sure. Art :)

Art, That's exactly what I was looking for, Thanx 1,000,000,000.

I was wondering what the area from the mouth of the brass to the point in the chamber that the brass would touch is called, assuming the brass was long enough to touch it, which we know it isn't? Or to put it another way: from the neck Shoulder junction to the stop at the point where the Freebore starts?

This area is unidentified in the illustration.
 
there are chamber drawings and then there are cartridge drawings, the cartridge drawing includes the brass.

so the difference in the max lenght of the case and the min lenght of the chamber at the neck, whould be the clearance(linear) you describe. typically in commercial rounds there is a large clearance and the trim to lenght listed in books tends to keep the two from ever meeting. in a custom chamber this distance can be whatever is asked for.

tools are made to measure the number, allowing one to obtain a custom trim to length.

mike in co
 
Shinny ...

I was wondering what the area from the mouth of the brass to the point in the chamber that the brass would touch is called, assuming the brass was long enough to touch it, which we know it isn't? Or to put it another way: from the neck Shoulder junction to the stop at the point where the Freebore starts? This area is unidentified in the illustration.

That area is part of the chamber's neck or neck chamber. The little area that's not filled in with the case neck is what I call the "chamber safety zone."

Ideally, it should never be less then 10 thousandths of an inch [.010"], although some individuals will allow that gap to get down to .005" to .003."

Here's a question I once asked myself and the responses I received with two fine examples.

Chamber Length Safety Zone

Q: How many thousandths shy of actual chamber length does one establish as a safety zone, before assigning a trim "from" length, once measurements have established a rifle's true chamber length ??? Art

Mike Bryant
A: I use .010" for each increment. For instance, if the chamber length is 1.570" from the base to the end of the neck on the chamber, then the maximum case length would be 1.560" with a trim length of 1.550". Don't let the cases get over 1.560" and you'll be in good shape.

Jackie Schmidt
A: I use a .010" window. 6mmPPC chambers have been shortened to 1.510". Since shooters fire cases to expand them, the cases come out close to 1.500". I trim them back to 1.490." :)
 
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Anatomy of a Chamber

:) Art,

I have asked that question to a number of seasoned shooters over the past year, and your anwser is the most concice, direct to thte point that I have ever received.

I thank you very much.

If you wouldn't mind sharing your phone number with me I woud appreciate it.

If so you can Email me directly @ shootershinny@pa.metrocast.net.

Again, Thanx so much for answereing a question that has been haunting me for some time.

Shinny:)
 
Anatomy of a Chamber

Jackie,
Thanx 4 the post. VERY HELPFUL.
Shinny



Some of the common terms used in Benchrest:

Chamber Body: This is the portion of the chamber that holds the pressure by containing the expanding body of the brass case as it seals against the chamber walls.

Chamber Shoulder: This is the portion of the chamber that acts as a positive stop as the case seats when the bolt closes.

Chamber Neck: This is the part of the chamber that helps align the bullet in the chambered round with the lands and grooves in the barrel. In Benchrest Rifles, we keep the overall neck clearance at just enough to allow for a consistant bullet release, but not so loose as to overwork the brass as it expands. Most Benchrest Shooters will use around .0015 to .002 loaded round to chamber neck clearance when the case is chambered. Of course, to establish such close tolerances, we actually turn the OD of the neck so trhat it is consistant in it's wall thickness.

Chamber freebore: Sometimes called "throat length", this is the small distance between where the neck ends and the lands begin. It can be anywhere from "zero" to way out there. The most common throat lengths use in 100-200 yard Benchrest are between .020 and .070. The throat length that many shooters use is determined by the bullet chosen and where the shooter wants the base of the bullet to end up in the neck of a loaded round.

Lead: This is the tapered portion of the chamber, after the freebore, that allows the bullet to have a smooth transition into the lands. 1.5 degrees is probably the most popular, but some shooters use varied angles that they believe works for them.

Headspace: This is actually a measurement established by The Small Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers Institute, (SAAMI), that determines where the positive stop in the chamber should be. By positive stop, I mean how far into the chamber a loaded case goes. It is the distance from the boltface to a line that is pretty much 1/2 way down the shoulder in a typical rimless bottleneck case. In a rimmed case, it is the distance between the breech block or boltface to the face of the barrel. In a belted magnum, it is the distance from the boltface to the inside of the counterbore that encases the belt. In a straightwall pistol case with a rebated rim, it is the distance from the breech block to the end of the chamber. Keep in mind, it is a measurement that is established world wide so that a Rifle or Pistol built in one part of the world can chamber and safely shoot ammunition that is perhaps manufactured years before and thousands of miles away.
To Benchrest Shooters, what we usually mean by "headspace" is the distance between the face of the loaded round and the bolt face. The reason we do this is because many Benchrest Chambers are not "standard". But, keep in mind, once we fireform our cases into our chamber, we can establish the 'headspace' at any distance we wish. Most Benchrest Shooters adjust their sizing die so that when the case comes out, there will be around .001 clearance between the face of the case and the face of the bolt. Technically, this is not "Headspace", it is head distance. Many even get their panties all in a wad when we call it "headspace" But, we have sort of "bastardized" the term for our own needs.

Hope this helps..........jackie
 
Shinny,
What are you doin' over there in "Weiner Dog Ville",Writin' a book?
You know everything you need to know for now,You sly dog!
Have you spent that $100 that you won at the "Hollister" yet?
Joel
 
Anatomy of a Chamber

Hi Joel,
As I have no Mentor, have to get as much info as possible on my own. Want to get my own reamers made but want to make certain what is best before ordering. As for the $100, that was spent before I got home that night (Beer all around). Looking forward to the season and seeing all of you folks again. This winter )chill( has been too long 4 me.
Shinny
Shinny,
What are you doin' over there in "Weiner Dog Ville",Writin' a book?
You know everything you need to know for now,You sly dog!
Have you spent that $100 that you won at the "Hollister" yet?
Joel
 
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