Allan VS.the world

Pete Wass

Pete Wass

Well-known member
I am finding the discussion about the Hall vs. the rest of the action world on other channels to be very interesting. It would appear that Math and Physics might be slightly on the Hall side, at least from what my understanding of what I read over there.

I shot a few shots through Bill Smith's Hall 10.5 last Saturday; my first time to use a Hall single shot action. I was most impressed with the ease of loading and the smoothness of the action, in total. Made me wonder why, if they are so inferior, folks haven't made improvements to use them in fairly large numbers. I also wonder why there aren't a lot of them for sale CHEAP if they are so bad?

Compared to a Turbo, with regards to loading and shooters comfort, makes one wonder why some copying hasn't been done??? I have almost always been against the grain with regard to life, in general, so I will say that based on my experience Saturday last, I would not hesitate to take up to use one of those inferior Hall actions in the weight classes and Unlimited class. What's not to like? If they all perform as well as my Hall Sporter, I would not be at a disadvantage.

Pete
 
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Pete,
Slick Willy has a few for sale. You could drive over & maybe get a 2 for 1 deal!
Its only money right? You've always said you weren't gonna let the nursing home get it so.....
Burrrrr....its cold up here!
Keith
 
I'l let them go

linekin said:
Pete,
Slick Willy has a few for sale. You could drive over & maybe get a 2 for 1 deal!
Its only money right? You've always said you weren't gonna let the nursing home get it so.....
Burrrrr....its cold up here!
Keith
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In his Estate Sale I guess Keith. He deserves to own them for now. Been "Seasonable" here the past couple of days and there is a freeze warning here tonight, suppose to blow hard out of the Norwest. Time to check the mooring eh?

Pete
 
Pete Wass said:
I am finding the discussion about the Hall vs. the rest of the action world on other channels to be very interesting. It would appear that Math and Physics might be slightly on the Hall side, at least from what my understanding of what I read over there.

I shot a few shots through Bill Smith's Hall 10.5 last Saturday; my first time to use a Hall single shot action. I was most impressed with the ease of loading and the smoothness of the action, in total. Made me wonder why, if they are so inferior, folks haven't made improvements to use them in fairly large numbers. I also wonder why there aren't a lot of them for sale CHEAP if they are so bad?

Compared to a Turbo, with regards to loading and shooters comfort, makes one wonder why some copying hasn't been done??? I have almost always been against the grain with regard to life, in general, so I will say that based on my experience Saturday last, I would not hesitate to take up to use one of those inferior Hall actions in the weight classes and Unlimited class. What's not to like? If they all perform as well as my Hall Sporter, I would not be at a disadvantage.

Pete
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That's easy Pete. You're about 6-8 years behind the curve. Back then they were very well represented, probably on a par with Flash's action and gradually most everybody moved on. Some do very well.......a distinct minority.. Most of the ones that do have altered ignition.
This all started with Bill Myers arguing until he was blue in the face about the ignition.
 
It's amazing

tim said:
That's easy Pete. You're about 6-8 years behind the curve. Back then they were very well represented, probably on a par with Flash's action and gradually most everybody moved on. Some do very well.......a distinct minority.. Most of the ones that do have altered ignition.
This all started with Bill Myers arguing until he was blue in the face about the ignition.
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I think the "Herd Mentality" prevailed is all. I think it's amazing how the word of certain individuals can have such a profound effect on so many and why it took so long for makers to look at ease of loading. Always been a big item for me. One of the things I liked a lot about the Hall is it ejected empties forward. Now, that's good engineering. Easy to load, goes Bang every time and gets the empties well out of the way, how could anyone beat that?

Pete
 
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Allan is as hard headed as a Texan can get!

For what its worth , My first BR rifle was a Hall, still got it ! Gene Davis /2G Benchmark ,I paid $3000 for it from Jug Hilton , beautiful rifle Jug polished it to perfection, the next one was a Bill Myers /Lilja ($2500) ,Then a BillMyers /Border ($2500) and Finally a Gorham/Ratchet which is the best one now ! I shoot with Allan ,he has been here and shot ,so its not like The end is here! IF......he would change the FP he would have something to offer folks like me a option that have over $10,000 dollars invested in his product ,but hell no, It goes BANG! Doesn`t it? I am so sick of hearing that BS, it makes me PUKE! That is absolutely the stupidest remark that a modest intelligent human being could make ,unless he has never shot anything superior to a Mossberg 144! There is a difference in equipment and I am definitely not a WLM flock member! (but I do agree with his dissection of the Hall) Mike Bowland made a new prototype HFP for the Hall, I was there when Allan put his Peepers on it, we should have had this on film! Give people a option, if that was my product ,I would try to get my sheet to the front ,and not be trying to fix Flash Eberts baby that is already at the top of the heap! How can one justify fixing something that ain`t broke and ignore the obvious....... DAMNIFIKNOW!!!
 
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Pete Wass said:
I think the "Herd Mentality" prevailed is all. I think it's amazing how the word of certain individuals can have such a profound effect on so many and why it took so long for makers to look at ease of loading. Always been a big item for me. One of the things I liked a lot about the Hall is it ejected empties forward. Now, that's good engineering. Easy to load, goes Bang every time and gets the empties well out of the way, how could anyone beat that?

Pete
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Your herd mentality BS wears pretty thin. If you think that guys at the higher levels of this fame use anything other than what scores wins you're misinformed. Besides the other side of herd mentality that you've come up with is exactly what?
The large middle of the pack guys probably play a lot of follow the leader, consistant performers gravitate towards what works. Very simple premise, but hey, go tilting your windmills.
Remember one single fact that the dimmest bulb in the room ought to factor, you can make a case that theactions at the top win because there's more of them. The fact that scores in every discipline are higher than ever only comes from one fact.........they work better.
 
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So, are you saying the math lies?

tim said:
Your herd mentality BS wears pretty thin. If you think that guys at the higher levels of this fame use anything other than what scores wins you're misinformed. Besides the other side of herd mentality that you've come up with is exactly what?
The large middle of the pack guys probably play a lot of follow the leader, consistant performers gravitate towards what works. Very simple premise, but hey, go tilting your windmills.
Remember one single fact that the dimmest bulb in the room ought to factor, you can make a case that theactions at the top win because there's more of them. The fact that scores in every discipline are higher than ever only comes from one fact.........they work better.
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Your argument makes no sense to me. The people at the top spend more money and look for the next best thing. Not surprisingly, the more barrels one goes through, the better the machine works. Not many people buck trends but there are a few. Not too un-often a 40X will win a big one as do Swindlehearsts and others. Not too far back a Hall won a big match, as I recall or was #2 at least. No, it's not about the magic of PAS or chunkin firing pins, it's about barrels and ammo and better, more sophisticated shooters, I believe. Someone who knows how to make rifles win can make a lot of stuff win, Coopers for example.

Pete
 
Randy Leger - Hall

Pete ,the only Hall that has done anything in ARA is Fred Sears` /Randy Leger built Hall that Fred won the 2011 ARA Nationals with, this is my 8th year shooting ARA and I can not think of another big time Hall win , St Louis was pretty bad that year conditions wise ,so a Hall won ! Fred has since changed gears and for the last 3 years has been shooting WLM Turbos ! Fred has won a PSL Match and is always up front Indoors or Outdoors ARA Matches he shoots in, he does shoot 50/50 so he could have done something there,also! The problem is : IN ARA we shoot mostly 5-6 cards /match if you are -100points/Target you are mid pack , Day in and Day out that will be the deficit you are given and I have seen it ,I used to be a victim! If I knew I was spotting the field 50 points a target , I `m looking for something else ! I see 40X`s occasionally at the front ,but they don`t have Pi$$ Poor Ignition(PPI), Now Coopers is an anomalie in ARA ,seen very few brave enuff to shoot one with out a white flag waving Surrender ! We let them shoot Coopers here @ ChickenFoot in the Factory Class Matches and they don`t win there either! By the way Pete ,I own about 20 Coopers mainly CF but I do own a Cooper 36 22RF and a 57M! I had rather take my chance with a Hall.
 
Well, there are Coopers that win

Slick Willy said:
Pete ,the only Hall that has done anything in ARA is Fred Sears` /Randy Leger built Hall that Fred won the 2011 ARA Nationals with, this is my 8th year shooting ARA and I can not think of another big time Hall win , St Louis was pretty bad that year conditions wise ,so a Hall won ! Fred has since changed gears and for the last 3 years has been shooting WLM Turbos ! Fred has won a PSL Match and is always up front Indoors or Outdoors ARA Matches he shoots in, he does shoot 50/50 so he could have done something there,also! The problem is : IN ARA we shoot mostly 5-6 cards /match if you are -100points/Target you are mid pack , Day in and Day out that will be the deficit you are given and I have seen it ,I used to be a victim! If I knew I was spotting the field 50 points a target , I `m looking for something else ! I see 40X`s occasionally at the front ,but they don`t have Pi$$ Poor Ignition(PPI), Now Coopers is an anomalie in ARA ,seen very few brave enuff to shoot one with out a white flag waving Surrender ! We let them shoot Coopers here @ ChickenFoot in the Factory Class Matches and they don`t win there either! By the way Pete ,I own about 20 Coopers mainly CF but I do own a Cooper 36 22RF and a 57M! I had rather take my chance with a Hall.
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We have several folks who regularly shoot Cooper Single shot Bench guns ( don't remember the model) that shoot 250- high ex count 50/50 cards cards and do well. A couple of them did some winning at our State and Regional matches this past summer. They will shoot with any of the rifles we have and many of us have rifles built by the best makers. Those Wilson barrels are what make Coopers what they are, not the actions or triggers. I wouldn't say a Cooper Rimfire firing mechanism is as good as a Hall from what I have seen.

I'm not saying that a Cooper will win a PSL any time soon but for the average shooter, shooting only local matches, they are pretty hard to beat for the money and capable of competing at a regional level. I don't expect any of the top shooters would ever shoot a Cooper in a match of any kind, I understand all of that. Not all of us are driven to be the Champeen of the Woild. Many of us understand where we fit in to this sport and are ok to be where we are. Having the perceived best of everything wouldn't change one thing if one misses a switch or touches a trigger by mistake at the wrong time OR just guesses wrong. For this reason I dislike all the hype about the top shooters. They are a small percentage of those who keep these Sports going and, in some places, growing. I mean no dis respect here but there is more than one levels in competition. Not everyone is willing to spend, do the travel and take the time away to compete Nationally. If everyone racing Stock Cars had to be at a level of the Cup folks, there wouldn't be many folks racing.

So it doesn't make sense to me to expect everyone to be at the same level as the top 4 or 5 in any Sport but that is what is, more or less, expected in these RFBR Sports; at least what one sees on here anyway. I don't think it is productive to continue to go down that road and is part of the reason why growth is so slow and even in decline in some places. Not everyone can or wants to be King of the Hill.

Pete
 
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Pete, not for nothing, but the way you drone on about componants, it's if you built something here to prove a theory.
Even you're Cooper theory is suspect. Are these not barrels that have been relaped by your Cooper guy? Now kudos to him for a job well done but aside from the fact that it represents about .05% of the guns sold it is an anomaly.
 
It's always tough to say for sure Tim

tim said:
Pete, not for nothing, but the way you drone on about componants, it's if you built something here to prove a theory.
Even you're Cooper theory is suspect. Are these not barrels that have been relaped by your Cooper guy? Now kudos to him for a job well done but aside from the fact that it represents about .05% of the guns sold it is an anomaly.
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but I think 4 of the best shooting Coopers have not been massaged at all. Their barrels are the way they came from Montana. I am somewhat surprised to see you suggest here that it may be possible for a barrel to be improved other than by the Maker. You have chided me in the past for that suggestion. I guess in doing that you disregarded what your friend Chet seemed to be able to do or BC, who has not too distantly given a person advice on how to lap a barrel using patches and Clover Brand. Have you changed your mind on this issue?

Pete
 
Pete Wass said:
but I think 4 of the best shooting Coopers have not been massaged at all. Their barrels are the way they came from Montana. I am somewhat surprised to see you suggest here that it may be possible for a barrel to be improved other than by the Maker. You have chided me in the past for that suggestion. I guess in doing that you disregarded what your friend Chet seemed to be able to do or BC, who has not too distantly given a person advice on how to lap a barrel using patches and Clover Brand. Have you changed your mind on this issue?

Pete
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Once again you are( go figure) wrong friend Wass. I have never stated a barrel , in fact lots of barrels, cannot be improved upon. I have owned many of them massaged by Mr. Eck, Mr. Amick, and others.
As is usually the case your understanding of previous comments is lacking. Sometimes there is something to be gained by a follow up lap for a variety of reasons, this has often been the case. To assume this can be done with patches and Clover is unlikely.
If you haven't figured out yet the smith you referenced has a rich history of less than honest replies, often to do nothing more than to get the Internet all atwitter.
 
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