Agenda Items

My $.02. Airgun benchrest is the most technically demanding of the airgun disciplines. It is also where the most innovation and experimentation takes place. Any additional classes need to be easy on restrictions and allow for change. They also need to be challenging to keep the shooter's interest over time.
Keep 20fpe and below status quo. I agree very much that tethering and refilling during a match does nothing to further the development of air guns and should not be allowing in competition.
I like the idea of ranges longer than 25m. It seems the rest of the world likes 50m. If we shoot 50y it will be difficult to compare scores.
There are problems with allowing .25 cal but I think it is a logical progression especially at the longer ranges.
I wouldn't mind having a 20# weight restriction as well.
Dan
 
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An outsiders opinion: If you want to grow the sport, keep the rules as consistent from year to year as you possibly can. Rules creep has destroyed many organized sports associations.
 
Well, we seem to have a consensus of opinion on one point, no tethered tanks.

So far, the USA Open Class or Heavy Varmint-Class C looks like this:

Up to .22 caliber, international scoring applies, 35 FPE max, 30 pound weight limit, one piece rests allowed, 25 meters or 50 yards.

USA Unlimited Class so far is no restriction on caliber, power or weight, international scoring applies, one piece rests allowed, 25 meters or 50 yards.

LD,

there was no mention of novel or imaginative. My reference to imagination was to allow shooters who enjoy experimenting the freedom to do so. I disagree with your other points regarding safety and problem solving. Design efficiency is not always the goal. Nothing quick and dirty about finding a better path to an answer. If this provides instant gratification, so be it, that is life in the 21st century. That may offend your sense of ethics but some things do change, for better or worse.
 
Chris,

To many, if not all but a very few, the term "out of the box" refers to novel and imiaginitive thinking that would not normally occur to most people familiar with the situation. The term nas nothing to do with ethics, but instead, a yardstick relating to the size of the commentor's "box" of knowledge relating to the topic.

A concern for safety and sloppy lane habits that would not be permitted on most ranges is (to me at least), also unrelated to ethics. I also feel incorporating for allowances of potentially unsafe practices into the basic equipment rules is, while unwise, its not involving ethics.

Finally, you say things change for better for worse with the implycation that I should simply accept it ... to me, tis is abhorrent, since I would never condone inclusion of "worse" rules or conditions into new rules for our sport. PERHAPS this might be what you mean by my ethics? Ifso, I say this ... my ethics still resist your opinion that allowance of potentially worse safety comditions such as tethering, and though not really about ethics, I have been finding better paths for long enough to know whats "quick and dirty".

Now with that out of the way, there seems to be a set of objectives being disscussed here that may be at odds with the shooters accross the pond, but attractive to some over here. As an example, the use of one piece rests, which as specifically disallowed in the World rules, and thirty pound guns. I know some American rimfiire shooters like them, but frankly, I don't see anybody else but you pushing for them in this discussion.

Anyhow, at this juncture, I would recommend some of the ideas generated here be bounced off the rest of the shooters of the world to see what we can see.
 
LD,

As I mentioned, the consensus of opinion is to NOT allow tethered tanks.

I need you to cite one accident involving a tethered tank during any type of air rifle shooting sport so I can better understand your position of "worse" rules. While I personally do not see a tank as a safety issue, the person handling the tank is the only potential safety issue, we will take that item off the table.

By maintaining the existing international rifle classes and rules, we stay in synch with the rest of the world. The 2 new rifle classes do deviate from that standard but we do not have power restrictions to contend with like other countries.

The one piece rest is a popular piece of equipment in this country with benchrest shooters. Many of those shooters already own them and prefer them. To be clear, I am not pushing for one piece rests. I am asking for feedback on this point in the 2 new air rifle classes only due to the interest expressed by shooters.

Any input from shooters in other countries is welcome.
 
Going forward will the kodiak be the baseline pellet used to measure energy? I do not like the use of a standard pellet since it favors some and penalizes others. I do concur that it would save a little time.
Dan
 
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Dan,

It was never explained to me why the international group chose that particular pellet as the standard. Since we do not require any power testing there is nothing to worry about in the short term. If there was a need, my choice would be for a JSB pellet weighing something in the middle of available versions.
 
If you want more interest in this sport and draw different crowds, 25 cal definitely needs to be included; do whatever needs to be done to score the 25 accurately. There are people out there that are afraid of change, and that is why so many organization die out.

Unlimited is unlimited, but specify max cal would be 25 cal. Let's see what the best of the best come up with. The unlimited class is where a lot of airgun advancement will come from.

The unlimited and open classes are too intertwined in their respective specs. I would think the open class would be kind of a bastard child because guys would just shoot an unlimited gun in the open class. However, would the open class have the HV weight limit and 35fpe max in 22 cal? That would make sense. That would be your most popular class right there because you take the bigger rifle out of the picture so a lot of factory rifles still have a chance. Furthermore, the unlimited class will no doubt end up to be an expensive class to shoot--we don't need two high dollar classes.

Keep all your classes as-is so everything is tied to the worlds organization, but lets do the unlimited class the American way.

Gordon:)
 
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Gordon,

Welcome. The 2 new rifle classes should do exactly what you asked for. The USA Open class is proposed to be up to .22 caliber, 35 FPE, 30 pound weight limit with one piece rests allowed. This class is for those that want to shoot a higher power rifle or currently have one and do not want to adjust the power down.

The USA Unlimited class is proposed to be any caliber, any power and any weight with one piece rests allowed. The only restriction is no tethered tanks. This class will be for the .25 caliber and those experimenters that enjoy tinkering.

Both can be shot at 25m or 50y, at the discretion of the range or club involved. Different targets are available for both distances.

I hope we can count on your support.
 
To clarify, we still agree on no topping up the gun from start to finish of any given card, right?
 
cris said:
Gordon,

Welcome. The 2 new rifle classes should do exactly what you asked for. The USA Open class is proposed to be up to .22 caliber, 35 FPE, 30 pound weight limit with one piece rests allowed. This class is for those that want to shoot a higher power rifle or currently have one and do not want to adjust the power down.

The USA Unlimited class is proposed to be any caliber, any power and any weight with one piece rests allowed. The only restriction is no tethered tanks. This class will be for the .25 caliber and those experimenters that enjoy tinkering.

Both can be shot at 25m or 50y, at the discretion of the range or club involved. Different targets are available for both distances.

I hope we can count on your support.
Click to expand...


My issue is more with the weight of the open class.
Do you think the open class weight limit at 30lbs is a bit heavy? My vision of it would be is that you want the guy who has a factory rifle, that has maybe done a few mods to it and wants to shoot it in a class where he can shoot his 35fpe air rifle without the guy next to him shooting one of Chip's new 28lb monster benchrest guns that is de-tuned to get into the open class. That will happen. I believe the weight should be a few pounds heavier than the HV class. Enough extra weight for aftermarket stocks and extra power of the rifle.

As much as I would like to see a tethered gun included, because that would be the ultimate setup, I think the safety factor outweighs the advantage....you have to draw a line somewhere. I've worked with hi-pressure nitrogen and personally have seen lines break at a fitting. It's Dam scary if you are anywhere near that event. To get whipped by a flailing 3500psi hose....well, serious injury most likely will occur.

Gordon
 
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Gordon,

The HV rifle class has a power limit of 20 FPE and a weight limit of 15 pounds. The new USA Open class follows suit with a 35 FPE power limit and a 30 pound limit. The ratios are very similar. Some of the custom stocks are heavier than they look due to laminated wood.
 
cris,

I have to strongly agree with Gordon on the point of gun weight limit for the OPEN class 35fpe limit. I'd pick 18-20 lbs.. for open class. I'd almost let the weight stay the same as HV 20fpe class.. Most folks have detuned their guns that shoot HV anyway.. so they would just tune them up..

Unlimited weight is fine for unlimited class.

What ever super heavy guns there are out there, should tune up if they want to and for sure belong in the unlimited class IMHO.. bottom line is a .22 cal pellet can go just so fast and still group... from my limited exposure to the game.

I like the limiting factor of only filling the gun before the match.. no refills during the match for ALL CLASSES! .25 cal with large air tanks would be fun to watch as folks creativity takes hold. It will be a new world as the newer pellets become available. I've heard of some .25 cal Marauders that shot real well.. Wouldn't it be fun to see a Dan Brown type guy walk up with an 8lb stock rifle and some bags and read the wind so well, he kicks butt! I can totally see it happening!

Wayne Burns
 
Wayne,

There is about an even split regarding the weight limit for the new USA Open class. Some want 20-25 pounds and some want 25-30 pounds. As I mentioned, the custom laminated stocks that can accommodate bottle guns can be quite heavy. Maybe a compromise at 25 pounds will work, ratios are even closer.
 
I did a lot of shooting with my open class gun earlier this year at up to 45fpe. I had the gun set up at a weight of 31 pounds. I found NO real detriment to accuracy when I brought that weight down to 15 pounds.

Though there was NO appreciable gun movement during firing at 31 pounds, and a small amount of recoil crept in at 15 pounds, I soon learned that 45fpe was too fast for best accuracy, fiinally settling for under 35fpe. At 35fpe, movement due to recoil isnt an issue at 15 pounds for me.

Though I could have used 15lbs at the Worlds for my HV gun, I chose to use 13lbs.

I tend to feel one-piece rests and really havey guns will be an impediment to folks willing to travel, though I realise few bencrest shotters ARE willing to travel.
 
Wayne Burns said:
cris,

I have to strongly agree with Gordon on the point of gun weight limit for the OPEN class 35fpe limit. I'd pick 18-20 lbs.. for open class. I'd almost let the weight stay the same as HV 20fpe class.. Most folks have detuned their guns that shoot HV anyway.. so they would just tune them up..

Unlimited weight is fine for unlimited class.

What ever super heavy guns there are out there, should tune up if they want to and for sure belong in the unlimited class IMHO.. bottom line is a .22 cal pellet can go just so fast and still group... from my limited exposure to the game.

I like the limiting factor of only filling the gun before the match.. no refills during the match for ALL CLASSES! .25 cal with large air tanks would be fun to watch as folks creativity takes hold. It will be a new world as the newer pellets become available. I've heard of some .25 cal Marauders that shot real well.. Wouldn't it be fun to see a Dan Brown type guy walk up with an 8lb stock rifle and some bags and read the wind so well, he kicks butt! I can totally see it happening!

Wayne Burns
Click to expand...

Perfectly said. Can't wait to get started on a rifle for the open class.....will be a very competitive class and a lot of fun for sure.
 
Gordon,

I agree, the new USA Open class should be a great addition.

LD,

I, too, have shot my USFT with a stainless steel fore end. The block is 12" X 3" X 1.5" and weighs 13 pounds alone. I disagree that it makes no difference. At the higher power levels, the extra weight calms the entire firing cycle and is an improvement. Might not be a fair comparison since so much of my USFT has been modified.
 
agenda items

I like Dave's logic on most items he addressed so put me in his camp.
I personally would hold off on the 25 caliber until it comes of age and real interest is shown. Let us refine the two calibers we are presently using and address the 25 at a later date.

Frank Tirrell
 
Wayne buddy, I would like you to concider my point on the subject of filling of guns during a match. The purpose of benchrest shooting is to advance accuracy so why would you design a super gun and then choose to limit it's ability? Depnding upon the guns design factors 25 shots as you stated (depending on the caliber) may not allow the gun to remain consistant to maintain superior accuracy thus making the shooter improvise. This is defeating the original intent of the sport. Benchrest is not about the shooter it is about the gun. Would you concider letting it do it's job and we just do ours, like pray and touch the trigger?

PS; you looked real good at the bench. I just have no idea how you got your name.....looked like a clean cut American boy to me.
 
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