Agenda Items

C

cris

Guest
Would appreciate feedback on the following items:

Open/Unlimited Class

Should .25 caliber be allowed?
Should this rifle class be shot at 50 yards?

Sporter Class

Should this class replace the Springer class, 6 FPE, 10.5 pounds? (10m rifles)
Should this class be limited to 6X power scopes?

Scoring

Should scoring be done under 10X magnification rather than a .22 plug?
 
I would agree to the fifty yards distance ( for the HV class), but would say no to all the other questions.
 
Classes

Why not keep the World classes as is . Sportier is 6ft.lb. and 6X scope .
I wood like to see a unlimited class , but .22 cal. If .25 is allowed then no smaller caliber wood be competitive .
Lets keep the World rules as is so we can compete on a even playing field thru out the world .
 
Steve,

As I've been saying for months, what I think we should do is to basically follow the parameters of what the WRABF rules hold other than for a few exceptions.

As for the Classes: even though I doubt the 6FPE Sporter Class will see much interest, I feel it is important to keep since it will give the low-power shooters a place to compete. As to the scope power: the current Rule say 6.5#, so why not stick with it.
The 12FPE LV Class is essential as quite a few shooters are now set-up to compete in that, plus it will keep us in line for when shooting the WRABF Postal Cards.
The 15PFE HV-A Class is important if only because of the group of shooters in the Northwest who are shooting it, and doing amazingly well at it too boot.
The 20FPE HV-B Class needs to be maintained since 1.) so many already now have 20FPE guns, 2.) almost all .177 Cal. guns are set-up to compete at 20FPE even when running at over 900 f/s, and 3.) here again, it will be important for when we are shooting in any International Postal events.
UNLIMITED! My vote would be a definite yes for adding it. Now here's the rub. I would think that an Unlimited Class by definition would be open to any power of air gun shot from any rest. But, since it is specified in the general rules that the other four divisions all require a Two-Piece rest be used, if I were to bring my 12FPE gun to a match, but only brought a One-Piece rest, then I'm coming in knowing that I will be competing against the rest of the Unlimited Class, and not the LV Class.

Adding .25 Cal.: I like the idea as that caliber is now rapidly gaining a bunch of interest, plus more and more high-end pellets are becoming available for it. The only major draw-back I see is it could change what we are currently doing about plugging, especially if we still try to maintain a level playing field for. Using a .22 plug has meant that all calibers, whether .177, .20 or .22, could be scored by the use of a single plug, but if we were to add the .25's, this would mean having to up size that plug in order to accommodate the large hole size, which could be too much for the .177's hole, especially if and when the paper is wet.

YARDAGE: first of all, if a range is able to accommodate multiple yardages/meters, I believe the shooters should be given the option to shoot at whatever yardage they want, but I believe it is essential to have all shooters at a match competing at the same yardage at the same time, whatever that may be.
For the sake of keeping things simple, I would think that we would just maintain going with either 25Y or M. I know that personally I have little interest in shooting 50Y, and yet would hate to discourage those who enjoy it from shooting it. Although, I have been arguing for years that in my opinion the optimum distance for these guns is 35Y. This decision should probably be left up to the Match Director, then the only nightmare will be for the paperwork executives while trying to keep a level tracking of where everyone is at.

I'm sure that I've left out allot, but these are my initial thoughts. And, here again, if you disagree with what I've said, then so be it!

Dave
 
Thanks

Thanks for the feedback. Hopefully, many more will respond.

My preference is to keep the international rifle classes and rules as they are. The existing Sporter class is essentially for 10m guns and 6.5X scopes.

The Open/Unlimited class does raise some questions. Open/Unlimited means anything goes, so yes to one piece rests and .25 caliber. However, scoring with a .22 plug then becomes an issue. This rifle class should not be about a level playing field, clearly, it is an equipment race. It may not be possible to have .177 and .25 caliber rifles competing without one having a definite advantage.

The other question is target distance. When rifles are shooting 30+ FPE, will the target become boringly easy at 25m? 50 yards also allows more ranges and clubs the opportunity to try this game when 25y/m is not an easy option.

More feedback is needed. Thanks.
 
.25 As I see it the problem with.25 is you are looking at 50ft.lb. and 30+ gr pellets . No other cal. could compete with that, forcing all unlimited shooter to get all new seat up .
 
Hi Steve,

I would agree with Dave... except that I think 50 yards is the distance for "unlimited" class and 30 fpe should be the limit.. with NO .25 cal. allowed at this time.. .22 cal 30fpe at 50 yards would be about as hard as 12fpe at 25 meters. We should use the targets the rimfire guys are using now... with the same scoring rules.. so we can have them as a "Target" to compete with as well as our own weenie "BB" gun shooters:)

Wacky Wayne
 
A problem with .25 is it gets like rimfire ... the ammo costs too darned much! IF power were held to 30fpe, I doubt a .25 could hold well against .22's, and if unlimited fpe were allowed, I suspect .22's might hand with em using heavier fodder, but then cost rears its ugly head for no good reason. Also, I don't EVER wanna see tanks tethered to the guns, or recharging during cards, and suspect the powermongrels would beg for it.
 
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Well, maybe we need to call it only an Open Class and not strive for anything goes?

.22 caliber max, same scoring, maybe 35 FPE max, one piece rests allowed, at 50 yards using the international 50m target.

What do we say to the first shooter that shows up with a Chip Smith sumo single shot and a Benchmark .25 barrel?

To FredB, we have not had a SINGLE springer shooter. I think some of the old SSP rifles might do well.
 
The rules are already in place and need to stay the same for rifles sub 20 and under, shooting distance at 25m. In Open/Unlimited class the rifle has to be able to shoot a full card, agree with Larry no tanks attached or refilling under the clock. This class would have to be thought out, and would recommend 50 yards for this class shooting their 50m target.
 
How about this?

USA Open Class: up to .22, international scoring applies, 35 FPE max, no weight limit, one piece rests allowed, no tethered tanks and 50 yard target.

USA Unlimited Class: any caliber, scored with magnification/no plug, any power, any weight, one piece rests allowed, any tank attachment and 50 yard target.

All other International rifle classes and rules are unchanged.
 
In South Africa we shoot 12fpe LV, 15fpe HV-A & 20fpe HV-B (WRABF rules).

We also shoot 2 classes at 50m, Grouping (5 x 5 shot groups) and Score (using rimfire target).
Both classes have 30fpe energy limit, 15 pound weight limit and up to .22cal.
 
Steve,
We need to stay with the international rules, targets and classes for the 6,12, 15 and 20fp classes.
The Open and UL classes you outline would work, except for the scoring under magnification without plugging. I've scored thousands of targets, enough to know that any projectile makes a smaller hole in the paper than it's diameter. The only way to accurately determine where the outside edge of the projectile was is to determine where the center of the hole is and measure out from that point. Only a plug or computer can accurately determine the center of the hole.
My .02,
Todd
 
Whether we try to accommodate .25's, or not, makes no difference to me. My thought was that in the future the .25's are going to start showing up much more often, especially with Air Arms offering their new Super-Gun, the S500 and 510 Twin Cylinder, in .177, .22 and .25 in FAC power levels, plus with high-end .25 pellets becoming much more available from several of the manufacturers. Maybe holding off until it becomes more of an issue should be done, but I know as much as I'd like to buy one now, I'm not going to run out and spend the money until I know I have a place to play with it. Of course, if nothing else, it would be one Hell of a Chucker, that's for sure!

As to whether we shoot 25M or 50Y, I agree that there will be more ranges ready to accommodate us at 50Y than at 25Y or M. But that's usually nothing more than an easy adjustment. Now, if we were to require 50M, that's a whole different story as several ranges can only go out to 50Y, like Pinnacle, without bringing in some heavy-duty earth-moving equipment. My feeling is that if a .22 is shooting in the O/U Class, it will mainly be shooting against other guns of similar power levels, so that shouldn't impact the final outcome in the least no matter what the distance.

Ammion,

I like that idea of shooting the two Classes at 50Y/M, especially the 5 X 5 groups.

So, as of right now what we're saying is:
1.) We should continue following the general intent of the WRABF Rules
a.) Other than for adding an O/U Class to be shot at 50Y for FAC models guns up to and including 35fpe, and where One-Piece Rests can be used,
b.) We should maintain that no tethering or refilling of guns be allowed during a target,
c.) When shooting at 25Y/M, power will be restricted to 20FPE max while using the 25M WRABF Targets,
d.) When shooting O/U, power will be restricted to 35FPE max while using the 50M WRABF Target,
and
e.) .177, .20 & .22 caliber will be allowed, but no .25's as of yet.

Whether someone brings a Springer or not will make no difference as we Classify by "FPE", and not power source. Besides, any "good" Springer should be able to make itself known when shooting against PCP's.

Yea, I can work with that.

Dave
 
Steve,

I think we would be wise to use the same rules as the S. African team for the "Open" class, and I don't think we need an "Unlimited" class, unless, there seems to be a lot of interest I haven't heard about... and, since I think we should keep all the other classes in the international current rules. How many rigs can one really get shooting good and have time to practice with. We need to be playing the same or similar games as the rest of the world... in my humble, rookie opinion:). I can see the rest of the world catching up to an "Open" 30fpe .22 cal class someday, but "unlimited" might not ever happen on the world stage.

Wayne
 
The real intent of an USA Unlimited class is so that .25 caliber air rifles have a place to shoot and for those who enjoy thinking outside the box. Some of these rifles may exceed 35 FPE. As far as scoring, if we need a plug, then we will need to source one. 50 yards is a good distance and will ensure that it does not need to be extended in the future. Allowing tethered tanks allows those experimenters free reign with their imagination. The popularity of this class may or may not pan out and can be addressed in future years.

The USA Open class is for those that want to shoot something with more power since we do not have any power restrictions to contend with. Under 35 FPE is a good starting place, up to .22 caliber, no weight limit and allowing one piece rests that have become so popular in this country. Again, 50 yards means we never will outgrow it.

The other 4 international classes and rules should remain unchanged to remain in compliance with the rest of the world.
 
Steve,
Now that we know what the S. African team is shooting, we might be wise to match their "Open" class rules with a 30fpe limit. I thought I heard Gert say, they have already fought it out with the WRABF rules committee to get those rules approved... should'n't we just go with those too?

Wayne Burns
 
Outside the box? Tethering a gun to the tank is hardly novel or imaginative ... rather, when relied on as a "solution", it promotes sloppy safety habits and reduces the need for logical problem solving and efficient design by promoting quick and dirty methods to achieve instant gratification, which might be fine for initial development work, but it doesn't belong in structured matches.
 
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