Agenda Item: Open Class

C

cris

Guest
This is where we are,

USA Open Class
.177, .20 and .22 calibers are allowed.
Up to a maximum of 35 FPE.
Up to a maximum of 25 pounds.
International scoring rules will apply.
Target distance will be 25 meters or 50 yards, at the discretion of the host club/range.
One piece rests are allowed.

Should the maximum weight be 20 pounds or 25 pounds?
 
I vote for 20#.
How about the method of measuring fpe? Standard pellet or the pellet the shooter uses?
Dan
 
Great Question

Dan,

That is a great question after the experiences with a standardized pellet. Thanks.

Second item, should FPE be measured in USA Open Class with a standardized pellet, if yes, then which pellet or the shooter;s pellet of choice.
 
Cris,

How could this even be a question....If we are using the current world rules, as you have stated we should, and all agree we should... as I read them, we use the shooters pellets, (he must have enough in the tin to shoot all the matches and sighters).. seal that tin with official tape, and make sure those are the pellets he shoots. I have no idea where the plan for a single test pellet came from.. but, it makes no sense at all... and turned out to be a huge mistake... a mistake that sparked this wild fire of ego based comments.

Wayne Burns,
Match Director,
Ashland Air Rifle Range
 
Cris/Steve,

Are you actually going to count the votes from the club's match directors? And wait until each one has voted... Is anyone who wants to comment, vote going to count? Will we get to see the actual tally? Will a vote tally be the deciding factor? If yes to the above...
I would change it as follows..

USA Open Class
.177, .20 and .22 calibers are allowed.
Up to a maximum of 30 FPE.
Up to a maximum of 18 pounds.
International scoring rules will apply.
Target distance will be 25 meters or 50 yards, at the discretion of the host club/range.
NO one piece rests are allowed... (same rules as current world rules should apply here too).

Wayne Burns,
Match Director,
Ashland Air Rifle Range
 
Wayne,

Voting is not what I would call this because while we have shooters that have a definite opinion, many have also said they do not think it makes much difference and would go either way. Certainly, match directors are welcome to give their own feedback but it comes in from shooters as well. Given the events of this past week, I will not be doing a tally or sharing anything except general trends.

As far as power testing, I am not sure how the international organization would do this the next time or if the standard pellets would remain the same. In addition, in these 2 new classes, we have the opportunity to fine tune things to better serve our shooters and these new classes.
 
Wayne,

There WAS no huge mistake. The method used was sensible and worked out ok.

Though there WAS considerable problem with the power validation at the Worlds, it was all about getting the chronograph working properly. Fact is, the volanteers doing the work had enough issues just rying to check and tg all those guns with the simplfied process they used, with standrd weight pellets for each class, and a simple pass/fail critera for each. WERE the method you suggest to have been attempted, it wold have vastly complicated the work of the volanteer checkers, since they would need to locate, produce, and WEIGH every pellet used, then painstakingly calculate the results.

AND ... fact is there would npt been any easy way to make sure the pellets submitted were, i fact, exactly like the ones submitted for the certification. What if a guy submitted those same kinds of standard pellets we all saw at the weigh-in, but for perfectly innocent reasons, decided a day or two later to use borrowed pellets ... is that grounds for disqualification then?

I know there was some hubbub after the match, but it was based on the totally groundless premise that use of a pellet rifle combo that gave different results with some pellet than others might be "unfair". The rules were followed, and any shooter operating strictly within the rules is being fair. The allegations were simply post match grousing.
 
LD,
I really do disagree my friend.. Yes, it would have taken longer, but a line could have been set up with someone weighing pellets, looking up the fps to be within the limit on a chart, and then move to shoot over the crony... seal the tin and that's what the shooter uses... no exceptions without permission of the match director.. who, according to the rules, could comply, and allow a change, if it makes sense. That is the rules that most of us read before the match and expected to have to deal with... Why have printed rules, and not follow them? Here they are again, if anyone cares..

At the discretion of the Championship Director, shooters may be required to resubmit their rifle/s for re-inspection at any time during the Championship. The Director is not required to give advance notice of such inspections. If Officer(s) verifies that any element of the equipment, already submitted to preliminary control, are altered or replaced, the competitor will be immediately disqualified for the whole match or, in specific cases, for the whole championship.

E.8.9 Air Rifle Power Check Procedure

1) 10 of the competitor’s pellets to be weighed and the average noted.

2) A string of 10 shots over using a chronograph, an average velocity would be calculated.

3) The power output would be derived from the information in 1 and 2, buy using the following formula;
Kinetic energy = weight (grains) x speed (ft/sec) x speed (ft/sec) 450240 This is then multiplied by 1.356 to attain the correct Joule value

4) If the power is within the prescribed limit the rifle and pellet box/tin will be labelled as such, the
pellet box/tin being sealed with the label until the match starts then re-sealed after each detail.

5) If the power is outside the limit time would be given to sort the problem before a re-test.

6) Competitors should make sure there are sufficient pellets in the batch that have been tested to
shoot the whole match as additional testing will not be done unless unforeseen circumstances make
such a test necessary.

This seems doable and reasonable to me for such an important event... and I'm really puzzled why it wasn't done that way. I really think that this issue is what created the ground work for the ego driven comments after the event.

Wayne Burns
 
Wayne Burns said:
Cris,

How could this even be a question....If we are using the current world rules, as you have stated we should, and all agree we should... as I read them, we use the shooters pellets, (he must have enough in the tin to shoot all the matches and sighters).. seal that tin with official tape, and make sure those are the pellets he shoots. I have no idea where the plan for a single test pellet came from.. but, it makes no sense at all... and turned out to be a huge mistake... a mistake that sparked this wild fire of ego based comments.

Wayne Burns,
Match Director,
Ashland Air Rifle Range
Click to expand...

Agree totally.
Dan
 
Wayne,

It was explained to me that the rule you quoted was utilized at some previous big event and it took much too long. The altered and streamlined version was put in place in an effort to save time. The choice of the pellets was not explained but everyone should have been aware of the standard pellets and the new procedure, as it was posted here and the yellow forum.

Dan,

Again, the standard pellets and procedure could be changed at the next international event. The international rules should provide the basis on what we do but when we see a problem, just like the international organization did, it should be addressed. No one wants to see a repeat of last week's mess.
 
Anyhow yes, we disagree. The elaborate method you cite seems needlessly compicalted and labor intensive in relation to any possible merit It might have.

I did feel the pellet model selected was poor for the .22 applications, the METHOD used was about the most realistic for the conditions and potential resources required. Yes, for SURE had they picked a more middleweight pellet such as say ... 14.3gr or 15.9gr JSB pellets, the likelyhood of any unusual disparity would be nil.

Tell you what ... give that method a try at the next big match you guys are having up in Oregon, using it on ALL the competitors of course, with no corner cuttiing or exceptions, so you can get a really good firsthand experience, then give us some more feedback regarding the benefits and effort required.
 
Wayne Burns said:
Cris/Steve,

Are you actually going to count the votes from the club's match directors? And wait until each one has voted... Is anyone who wants to comment, vote going to count? Will we get to see the actual tally? Will a vote tally be the deciding factor? If yes to the above...
I would change it as follows..

USA Open Class
.177, .20 and .22 calibers are allowed.
Up to a maximum of 30 FPE.
Up to a maximum of 18 pounds.
International scoring rules will apply.
Target distance will be 25 meters or 50 yards, at the discretion of the host club/range.
NO one piece rests are allowed... (same rules as current world rules should apply here too).

Wayne Burns,
Match Director,
Ashland Air Rifle Range
Click to expand...

Wayne's comment on the open class requirements are perfect--that's your open class right there. If you go heavier than 20.5lbs absolute Maximum, your going to have issues with people squeezing in the unlimited class guns with the ginormous barrels. I would think you would not want those kinds of issues.

When having lunch today we were discussing weights and Chip told me his monster gun could get into the 25lb weight if needed, even with the giant barrel he has for it.

I think extra weight for a bigger bottle, heavier stock, and moderately sized barrel is all the extra weight needed. I don't see why an extra 10lbs is needed over the HV.

I want to shoot the open class, not the unlimited, and if you make the open class requirement loose enough where I can build an unlimited rifle, and I can squeeze it in as an open class, you bet I will do just that, and rest assured, I won't be the only one doing it. Hence, you are going to have people that have special built guns shooting against people that are shooting factory type rifles. I don't see that vision for the open class. It's not suppose to be a class of haves-and-have-nots...........But surely that will be case of the unlimited class.

Gordon
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Gordon,

Yes, barrels are changing. Big bottles or twin bottles will force stocks to become heavier. 35 FPE chews up a great deal of air.

Now, we are at 18 pounds, which is the lowest weight suggested to 25 pounds, which was a compromised weight.

How would feel about 22 pounds?

Can you get a weight on his single shot action, your trigger, regulator and air tube? I have weights on barrels and stocks. Thanks.
 
Yes im sure we can do that. Im not sure if he has all the
Internals on hand. They may be in getting heat.
Ill see him in the morning and ask him.

What weight do you have for an average upgraded
Rifle?
 
LD, I totally agree that it is complicated.... But, I didn't suggest that method, or suggest we continue to use it... that's just what the existing rules were at the match... or... are, until they get changed to something that is easy, and gets an accurate measurement. I would be fine with weighing two or three pellets from the shooters tin.. then even only 5 shots over the crony would work just fine, I'm sure... Hind sight is always better, it sounds like the method in the current rules WAS tested before, and found to be too complicated, and the method used instead this time, didn't give accurate readings on some rigs. IMHO.. I think we should find an easy way to use the shooters pellets for the test, and seal that tin for the match. It seems to me that is the only way to avoid the problems we just had.

Wayne
 
Gordon,

Shooters have reported 6 pound barrels at .900 OD and stocks between 8-9 pounds to accommodate large bottles. Scopes with rings will push 2 pounds.

While I agree the new Open Class should be an extension of HV, I also see the Open Class as extension of the new Unlimited class. If you own or build an Open Class rifle, a change of barrel to .25 caliber puts you into the Unlimited Class. This type of flexibility could help participation in both classes.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Open Class

I do not think many well build or have 4 -5 separate rifles for air rifle bench rest . There well be a crossover from 20 to open and open to unlimited . Let us not forget that the premier world classes are 12 and 20 . Lets not concentrate so much on the USA classes that we are not competitive in the world . Keep the same ft.lb. to weight ratio and have at it .
 
Whatever,
I continue to believe this and other rules enforcment issues should be left to the discretion of the match director. Its enough to state the limit, and that it will likely be enforced, with no need to dictate exactly how for each and every case in advance.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top