Action Binding?

T

Tony C

Guest
I was describing something to a friend, and he said my action could be binding. I can have identical loads (case length, neck thickness, powder, bullet seating, etc.) and some cases will extract smoothly while others give an extremely hard bolt lift - as if the loads are excessively hot. But these are moderate to mild loads. I've noticed it with two different barrels chambered by two different gunsmiths, so I don't think the barrels are the problem. Also with two different brands of brass.

Do you think the action is binding? If so, is it not true/square? Any suggestions?

Tony
 
If it is the *action,* you can test without any rounds in the action at all. I have an early serial number 10-inch BAT that will bind if you're not careful. The bolt/receiver clearance is only .001, so if you pull the bolt back using the handle with your hand way out at the knob, you're apt to bind it. If you put your finger on the root of the bolt handle (where it is silver soldered to the bolt), it usually won't bind.

With this action, the "binding" is of course an operator issue, not an action issue. Still I believe Bruce went to .002 clearance on later actions.

So if the action doesn't bind without a case, but does with (some) cases, you know where the problem lies.

Edit: If you're really talking about the bolt lift portion only, I'd say yes, you have excessive pressure for that brass. Other possibility - it wouldn't hurt to have the timing of the extraction cam checked by a good smith. That woudn't be a safety issue, but it is an in inconvenience. Not too hard to fix, usually.
 
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Yes, Charles. It involves only the bolt lift portion of the cycle. Being a factory Savage, I'm assuming there is plenty of clearance - maybe too much. Savage bolt lift is heavy, but what I'm experiencing from time to time mimics excessive pressure with mild to moderate loads.

Thank you,
Tony
 
Al

I weigh charges, but I don't have a chronograph. It's irionic that you ask. A well-known BR shooter had told me just a couple of weeks ago how invaluable a chronograph can be in load development. It would be interesting to compare the velocities of the easily extracted rounds vs. the hard to extract ones. Might be a good investment. I'll have to do a search to see which brand(s) are reliable.

I was also thinking about putting the original .223 bolt head back on and headspacing the factory barrel to see if the same condition occurs.

Tony
 
Well, a small case-head cartridge can act differently...

Savages are know for generous travel before the extraction cam picks up. Suppose you have this, and a slightly high pressure load - for whatever reason. I do believe the two could, acting in common, produce what you're getting. I believe all that's need to increase the extraction is a shim? Anyway, a fairly easy fix.

I seem focused on this as the problem, and of course it could be something else...
 
Through a PM from Charles, we may have stumbled onto something. Both action screws are drilled through - not blind holes. It's possible that one of them may be protruding ever so slightly to the bolt through the aftermarket stock's pillars and bedding - possibly contacting the locking lugs.
 
I'm not at all convinced the action screw is the problem. In these kind of situations, you have to eliminate possible causes one at a time. Tony reports the action screw is long & *might* be touching with the aftermarket pillar bedded.
 
I've got two Savage 110/112 rifles, and they always had heavy bolt lifts and weren't the most pleasant rifles to operate the bolt on although they both shot well. In the April 2010 issue of Precision Shooting Bob Greenleaf, a former Savage engineer/designer had an article on adjusting firing pin protrusion on Savage 110's. About the time I dug back and got that issue out, I got some information by Nathan H Kuehl dated 6/3/2011 that I can't find the source for other than Mr Kuehl. It may have been from BR Central, but in any case I didn't use that information on timing Savage bolts. Adjusting the firing pin travel according to Mr Greenleaf's instructions seems to have reduced the bolt lift effort on both rifles, and they're both now pleasant rifles to operate.

As for the action screws being a problem they'd be a problem ALL the time not just with some cases. As Charles says do the simple things first. If the action screw is making contact with the bolt there should be a scrape mark on the bolt body or lug where it's being rubbed by the action screw(s).

A chronograph is indispensable for load development IMHO. If you know what to look for (velocities jumping unexpectedly with an increase in powder charge or not increasing at all) you can tell when you're treading on thin ice pressure wise, aside from the fact that the components used in manuals will nearly always be different than the ones you will use even if you use the same brands and types.
 
I have filed down the ends of the action screws of several Savages. You can see their ends if you look closely with the bolt out. If they look like might be the problem, test by putting thin washers under bottom metal, and retightening. Let us know if it helps. Another thing to look for is rub marks on the end of the bottom lug.
 
OK. Got some washers at the hardware store to eliminate one variable. Put the action back into the stock. Began cycling the action and noticed something. As soon as the trigger releases, the front of the action shifts. For comparison, I checked my model 10. There is no movement when the trigger releases.

Next, placed the bolt from the model 10 into the 12, and it too moves when the trigger releases.

Don't know if this means anything or not.
 
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Stupid question. Is it the action moving when the sear releases or is it the bolt moving? The bolt handle will move on some rifles when they're dry fired, and not on others which might make a difference in competitive Benchrest shooting or not. I was never good enough at it to tell.
 
I'm too lazy (& it's not my problem) to do the search, but the gunsmith Mike Bryant has several times, on BR Central posts, written exactly how to check for bedding issues. Essentially, you secure the rifle & loosen the front screw, with a dial indicator on the barrel. After checking the front screw, you check the rear.

I would do this before trying to determine just what's moving when you work the action. That is, NEVER ASSUME. And in spite of the general notion that the tang on a Savage should not make contact after proper bedding, some have reported that a few shoot better when it is. None of this directly addresses the original problem.

for that, aside from using a chronograph during range sessions, I'd also give a careful read to the Bob Greenleaf article, and the other source mentioned on checking the extraction cam. Or go to a good Savage gunsmith...
 
Tony I believe what your experincing is a rsult of many problems stacking onto of each other. To start with a Savage action is a mass produced piece of equipement, and because of this they have there problems. More than liklely the action is bent and this is caused by the heat treatment proces that Savage uses after the action is machined. I would also bet if you have not bedded the action, that the action is not sitting well in the stock. Savages are notirious for heavy bolt lift, timming problems, including having a un-ballanced cocking ratio, and being low on primary extraction, but despite these problems the dang guns shoot very well. You have to keep inmide that this is a mass produced gun costing x amount of dollars, and that it is not your $1200 plus dollar Bat or Panda.

On judging loads and what pressure is, you have to remember each barrel has it own personality, and what works in one may or may not work in another. I would look for other signs of pressure, if you are truly having a sticky bolt lift you will see other signs, such as ejector marks and flattened primers. You may also be experincing where the die is not fitting the chamber, and making the brass as I call "clicky." You take that and place it with something that is on the low side of primary extraction, you would get what your describing. My thought is the problem your experincing is either the bolt body being out of phase, in the bolt handel, or at last in the rear baffel, one of the three causing it to be short on primary extraction.

With that all said, I highly recamend sending the action off to Sharp Shooters Supply, and let them go through it. I have had several actions done by them, and I can honestly say sitting there behind the gun it is hard to tell the difference on bolt opening between them, and my Bats or Pandas, call me crazzy I think they ( SSS re-worked savages.) are actualy smoother on opening.
 
82boy said:
...it is hard to tell the difference on bolt opening between them, and my Bats or Pandas, call me crazzy I think they ( SSS re-worked savages.) are actualy smoother on opening.
Click to expand...
OK, I always try to oblige...you're crazy. (But not about having the action reworked by someone who knows them).
 
Charles: The ten inch Bat you were talking about, I have one and I use Bolt Magic on it. and when you think you have enough on it, put some more on. After you get the bolt worked in with this stuff you will be amazed how nice it will work. I recommend it for any bolt action!

Joe Salt
 
I suppose, Joe. But my shooting sequnce has me grabbing the bolt at the root with my left hand for all cycling. All the right does is open & close. Otherwise, it's busy with loading the next round. Works for me...
 
Man you LEFTIES have me all messed up, mines right bolt left port. But try some Bolt Magic,I know what you mean about the bind. But that stuff works.

Joe Salt
 
Joe, I will probably try it on another action, where do you get it?

But... I'm right handed, and shoot RBRP. Almost always. Who wants a loading port staring them in the face? Bad things can come out of it.

This might work for other people too, so I'll give more detail.

When shooting off the bench, in competition, shooting fast is usually preferred. There are a whole lot of things to accomplish regarding (1) reloading the rifle, and (2) reacquiring the target. Both are equally important.

So what I do, esp. with the longer action, is to open the bolt with my right hand. The left hand can now easily go to the top of the action & pull the bolt back and push it forward, while the right hand reloads. As the right hand closes the bolt, the left hand drops down to the joystick if you use one of those, or the bag if you're a bag squeezer, or the rear rest windage knobs if it's a HG.

A little plus is that since you're pulling the bolt near the rood of the bolt handle, it doesn't tend to bind.

Can't remember the name of that young woman at Williamsport who is so fast -- Ashley? -- but this technique is almost that fast, and you're head doesn't have to leave the scope.

Works really well for a HG, or a rifle that doesn't recoil much. I'll allow that for the 10-inch BAT I have on my .338 LG, I have to use a different technique (& that's where I'll use the Bolt Magic). But I believe such a heavy-recoiling LG is a rarity these days?

OK, all this is maybe a bit off-topic in the factory/hybrid forum. Unless we can turn some of these guys into honest benchrest shooters...
 
Charles; Its made by True Kote, If your going to be at the world open I'll let you try so. Left port is fast and I can keep looking threw the scope and feed it without coming away from the gun unless I fumble, wich I do if I go to fast!

Joe Salt
 
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