A clean barrel

D

dlay

Guest
Did anyone read the article "A Clean Barrel" in the American Rifleman for November? What did you think about it? I am beginning to believe that we do clean too much. I used to clean a centerfire if I only shot one shot. I am beginning to have other thoughts. :confused:
 
After 40+ years of shooting and cleaning I'm having the same thoughts,
and have eased my routine of cleaning barrel after each range session
where it is only a few rounds,may have did more harm then good.:confused:
 
Concerning short range Benchrest...

Not all barrels are the same... you have to shoot and test a bit to see just how many foulers it takes for a barrel to settle in and how many shots it takes before it is not shooting it's best.

I think the habit of cleaning before it starts to lose it's peak tune has to do with the fact you don't want that accuracy edge to leave in the middle of a group.

...So if you know that particular barrel only requires one fouler to settle in, you just clean it and accept that first shot is out of the group but you will have no problem with the next 10 or 20...

That's my thoughts anyway.
 
I've read that in the days of cupro-nickel jackets and highly corrosive primers many long range match shooters would not clean the bore at all throughout the shooting season, and simply rebarrel when accuracy dropped off after aprox 400 rounds.
The barrel once cleaned never exhibited the same accuracy.
 
I think Old Gunner is right. Back in the days of dirty and corrosive ammunition the military drilled it into the head of every recruit that the barrels had to be immaculately clean and thus the habit of over cleaning developed and then bled over into the civilian sector which was often shooting the same ammo. I think shooters clean their barrels way too much. In "Hatcher's Notebook" he recounts how riflemen in the early 20th century used to grease their bullets to minimize fouling.
 
Over cleaning

I know my old regime of barrel cleaning was excessive and have modified it greatly since buying a borescope. Barrels do not have to be squeaky clean. Keep the carbon at bay in the throat area, minimize copper fouling and use a good bore guide. The foaming bore cleaners do an excellent job of cleaning; you really can't damage your barrel using them.

Lou Baccino
 
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Well
A lot of stories are second and third hand information, sort range legend.

As far as there being a trend to clean to much nowadays I would say that maybe some people do clean to much, and some people don't clean enough.
I have a gun that won't shoot any better after it has had 5 rounds through it or 500 rounds.
BUt I think it is very hard to really see the difference in accuracy after 10 or 20 rounds when a person is shooting a gun only capable of 3/4 or even 1/2 MOA, and the shooter isn't capable of any better.

I know a number of guys who have the ability to shoot teen aggs and many of them feel that it helps them shoot better if they clean after every group. If those guys say it helps then I believe them.

If cleaning after every group gives an advantage of .009 per group then that is an advantage that could only be realized in a close run Benchrest match and it would be hard to realize that advantage shooting accross the course using Iron sights.

I think the practice of frequent cleaning has its historical roots in the days of corrosive primers and military practice and in recent years it has been copied by casual shooters who are attempting to emulate the actions of Benchrest shooters.
Ted
 
I did run across a history of long range matches in Britian and around 1877 or 78 an American team showed up and cleaned their clocks big time. One reason given was that the American team swabbed out the bore after each shot. Of course this was in BP and lead bullet days.

Much depends on the qualities of the fouling, and just how effective the cleaning can be without damaging the bore.

One reference on military training told of how during Cupro Nickel days and for some time afterwards, soldiers were forbidden from even attempting to remove metal fouling, and only when such fouling visibly blocked the grooves would the rifle be turned over to a non com who was trained in how to remove it using some rather dangerous chemicals that could eat away barrel steel if air reached the metal during the process.
The chamber would be plugged and a tube stretched over the muzzle, the solvent would be poured to above the end of the muzzle. They would check every so often to be sure the level didn't drop because if there was an interface of solution and air a corroded ring formed in the bore.

All bores had to be deep cleaned of all metal fouling before storage for any length of time.
I once had an other wise very nice Krag carbine who's bore had been completely eaten way by corrosive salts under nickel fouling. The nickel came out of the grooves in strips like crome peeling from a rusty bumper, The metal under the nickel was like the surface of the moon.

When Cordite was first tried as a propellant they found that jacket materials fused to the bore as if brazed and the rifle fouled out within a few dozen rounds, bores could be ruined within a few hundred rounds.
Bullets became so hot, in part due to the high temperature of the Cordite but mainly due to friction, that they could see clouds of vaporized lead around the first bullets fired from a clean bore, and the first shot would wing off on a tangent.

They then found that when cordite rounds were fired after a round of a different propellant which left more fouling the cordite rounds gave higher velocity and less fouling. After that they added vaseline and olive oil to cordite specifically to induce a layer of hard baked carbon fouling, which prevented the jacket from fusing to the bore.
The carbon layer mainly protected the first 12-14 inches at which point friction was lessened since the bullet had settled into the grooves.

Metal fouling if evenly distributed didn't affect accuracy that much, but high temperature propellants allowed fouling to build up then washed it away unevenly, greatly compromising accuracy.


Since I seldom buy a rifle in new condition, and most are in a bad need of cleaning, I clean as well as possible before first shooting then after every session, sometimes during breaks in shooting while the barrel is warm.
If possible I clean to bare steel, but often the bore will be clean bare polished lands with grooves thinly and evenly fouled with copper thats softened by solvents so it acts to reduce friction and fill in low spots if any. So long as the softened copper residue doesn't cling to the bullet it doesn't bother accuracy that much if any.
After brushing and pushing out the bulk of fouling I use an undersized jag with a thick soft patch, to swab rather than scrub. Finishing up with a few tight patches to push out loosened residue.

Of course all copper must be removed if lead bullets are to be used.
 
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Gentlemen,

I think the article on cleaning by John Barsness has some merit. It made me think of a couple of thoughts that have been attributed to Ed Shilen.

1. Most rifle barrels are ruined by an improper cleaning technique.
2. Clean your barrel when accuracy starts to suffer. Then only clean it to the level where accuracy is restored...not down to bare metal, or squeeky clean.

I wrote the rifle cleaning section for my departments long rifle school manual and those two thoughts are front and center in the handout, especially thought #1, and will be hammered home in the lecture. The average Joe, or police long rifle, may be doing more harm to his barrel than good. I don't think this is quite the issue with benchrest shooters.

I played around a bit with the cleaning routine on my Hart barreled .308 and was never able to tell the difference, accuracy wise, between cleaning after 20 rounds (which has kinda become the "standard" in these circles), or cleaning after 40-50 rounds. There may have been a difference, but I'm not good enough to realize it. I've also never noticed any problems accuracy wise in the varmint fields after long strings of shots with no cleaning. Squirrels still ceased to exist.

However, also hammered home to students is the fact that rifles, like people, are individuals. They all have different wants, needs and desires, and it is up to the individual shooter to determine what his particular rifle likes and dislikes. The only way to find out is to go out and shoot it.

I agree with Ted in that a small improvement in accuracy due to cleaning will only be realized by a good shooter and a benchrest rifle. Joe Sh!t the Ragman with his shot once a year .270 will never see it. I also think Mr. Sorenson is spot on with his comments.

Alas, as Mr. Barsness alludes to, the "clean frequently" mindset has become gospel...so it is written, so it is done. If a police long rifle were to take a shot and something was to go bad wrong, and it was found out he cleaned every 50 rounds, some defense "expert" would surely be found to testify that things went sideways due to that officers neglect in not cleaning his barrel the norm of every 20 rounds...truth be damned.

From a different point of view,
Justin
 
Barrel cleaning

I thought that was a very good, common sense article, and gave much food for thought. The bottom line is: it's your barrel, do whatever you want with it.;)
 
Haven't read the article.

I would quess I fully agree with it tho.

Cleaning less requires a bit more work in load development. Mostly finding a powder that leaves a fouling condition your particular barrel likes. Must be accurate also of course.
When you find your barrels happy medium it will foul to a point then basically stop. A load thats too clean will collect copper (in some barrels) Or that clean load will constantly accumulate carbon at a slow rate.
A load too dirty can constantly accumulate carbon also. I quess thats obvious:rolleyes:

The perfect powder combo will take a certain amount of foulers then settle down. In my expierience its usually more than 1 or 2 foulers. At that point the tube is usually as fouled as it will get. Carbon does not seem to collect further and "bore condition" remains consistent from that point on.
IMHO good accuracy can only be maintained long term once the "bore condition" remains consistent.

Win 748 in a 204R barrel does this for me. I've gone 400+ rds with naked pills without cleaning. Cleans right up afterwards.
Win 748 in my 6BR gave me a big ol nasty carbon ring:D

My 6ppc likes X-Term and HBN. Roughly 300 rds this summer with no serious cleaning. Just dry patches.

6BR likes Benchmark and WS2. Bullet lubes generally help but my 204's do not require it.

On the downside I have other barrels that I've never found the magic powder for:eek:

Anyone think I'm not crazy?
 
Here is what I know.

Like many, I am caught up in a rythmatic habit of cleaning my 6PPC's after every group. In all honesty, I an sort of scared not too.

But, with my 30 BR, I shoot an entire agg without cleaning. It seems to shoot just as tight the last group, or bullseye, as it did the first.

An example. At New Braunfels, I shot a .238 agg at 100, coming in 3d in that yardage. The last group was a .158, I did not clean the Rifle for the entire agg.

Mike Stinnett out of Oklahoma does pretty well with his 30, and he does not clean during an entire Grand Agg.

At this years first Varmint for Score Match at Denton, I dropped an X on the first bullys eye, then shot 18 straight wipeouts in a row before that fiasco with the primer in backwards. I had not cleaned the Rifle during the Match.

I guess what we all need to do is quit cleaning our 6mm's and 22's, and see what happens. Maybe that is another good winter project..........jackie
 
Well Jackie

The reason I looked beyond 133 in my new/used 6ppc is it required frequent cleaning to maintain accuracy. It would start out shooting very tight. Then rnds would begin to "walk". Usually 1/2 to full bullet diameter at 200yds in a 45 degree line down and to the right for another four or five rds. Then it would open up to .5moa or more.
I was getting small amounts of visible copper just looking in the muzzle with a flashlight. Used tube unknown rds. Should be replaced.

X-term gives just a touch more carbon and stops the coppering. Its working so far:cool:
 
I always just had sporter rifles, but two years ago I got a heavy-barrel varminter in 22-250 and have been shooting it a lot. Now group size and accuracy have become very important to me.

When I first got the heavy-barrel, I went on these forums and that's where I got into trouble. I think I went cleaning crazy. We do see advice that makes cleaning a fanatic activity. I DO understand that with new rifles during the break-in, you need to do more. However, routines with several solvents and as many as 25 to 30 patches -- requiring about half an hour -- seems overboard. Maybe I am wrong.

However, if you took the advice of some, you might almost spend more time cleaning than you did at the range.

My rifle is well broke in now (500 plus rds) and I do the following. A couple of strokes with a brass brush from the breech, two or three patches with nitro solvent, a dry patch to remove any solvent, then one patch soaked in copper solvent (one of the mildest). After a couple of hours I swab out the copper solvent, usually getting a very green patch. Then a final swab with nitro solvent because the copper solvent is somewhat sticky, and I do not think a dry patch gets it all.

This entire routine takes me from about 5 to 10 minutes, not counting the two hour wait period for the copper solvent to work.

I know I do not get all the copper traces out with one application, but by doing this regularly, I expect that I am preventing build-up.

If anyone thinks I am doing something wrong, please tell me. You will be doing me a favor.

Best to all--
 
Mr Pete
As long as your gun shots well for you then I am sure you are doing fine.

Back when I first started shooting BR my first gun came with an older Hart Barrel. It showed a lot of fire cracking in the throat area and thin gold streaks in the groves up against the lands for about 6 or 8 inches. These thin streaks of copper would not come out with the normal chemical treatment. We tried butchs and sweets as well as a couple of others and the bore scope revealed that they were still there. They just didn't want to come out.
The last match I shot with that barrel was at the Blue Bonnet and I shot two
sub .450's at 200 yards back to back and then had the barrel replaced the next week. Mr Kelbly who sat next to me at that match said he didn't care what that barrel looked like, it appeared to him that it was still shooting. But I replaced it any way.
Sub .450 may not seem that great to some, but af Dietz in New Braunfels anything under a .6 at 200 is a keeper. I don't ever remember a match there when a condition hung around for more than about 10 or 15 seconds
Ted
 
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In past years, P.S.had many articles about cleaning. Warren Page said
"cleanliness is whatever. I had no borescope and knew of no one who
did. So, my cleaning, even across the winter, when not being used, was
a wet and dry patch every other day. Then I got a bore scope and
no longer do things that way. I found that patches, especially tight ones
are not unlike a buffing wheel. Rounding of lands is easy. I also have
cleaned a few new unfired barrel. patches are nearly always grey. You
can get very black patches from a barrel that has never had a round fired
through them with J&B. Two barrels just in, look great when you hold them up
to the light, but are very badly powder fouled as if never cleaned. They
don't shoot well, less than 500 rounds each, but were cleaned often.
Bore scopes are not cheap, but the education is worth it. You will
also spend less on all the magic potions. Knowing what works in the barrel
and load you have helps, and I would still be in the dark without a borescope
 
Bob Kingsbury said:
I found that patches, especially tight ones
are not unlike a buffing wheel. Rounding of lands is easy.
Click to expand...
Thats why I use an undersized jag tip (7mm size for .30 bores) and a thick felt like material, which I got many years ago at an auto supply store.
The felt is loose enough that any grit caught up in it won't be pushed hard against the steel.
A loop type end can cause problems if the patch is dragged back in the bore, the forwards end can let the patch double on itself, especially bad if the patch escapes the muzzle even by a fraction.

Don't know if I'm right but I prefer to push until the patch is near even with the muzzle then pull back when swabbing with solvent, and only push all the way through when pushing out residue.
When brushing I generally squirt plenty of solvent, Ballistol usually, and make several ful length passes then sluice the initially broken away crud out holding the muzzle down with a long spray of the same, or sometimes a thin penetrating oil.
When the fouling is thick and old I use gasoline and push the brush through into a can of gas to rinse away crud at each pass and draw fresh gas in with the brush.
I have some synthetic "Hair Pad" material left over from repairing the seats of show horse saddles, I think its dacron but not sure.
If theres a lot of softened residue I sometimes put a patch of this in a loop and using plenty of solvent use it to gently scrubb the bore, rinsing out the patch after every pass and replacing it every few passes. Then when I'm sure no grit is left I use the jag and felt.

I also have
cleaned a few new unfired barrel. patches are nearly always grey.
Click to expand...
I've cleaned new barrels and found them as dirty as if fired, perhaps not properly cleaned after a factory test firing.
My Savage .22 with synthetic stock had a bore full of fine black dust which appeared to be dust from the manufacture of the stock, probably caught in crannies in the stock and migrating into the bore during shipping.

I've used a number of polishing compounds in cleaning up old knives and in metal finishing of various sorts. A black waxy or greasey residue on the rags is likely atomized steel mixed with the waxlike materials that hold the solid blocks of compound together.

I've found J&B is a lot more abrasive than its supposed to be, at least with older softer steels.
 
Old Gunner

I am referring to barrel blanks that have neither been chambered
or testfired. A J&B patch will be black as coal. MY point is that
Black patches doesn't always mean your cleaning barrels. It
may be just a reaction. You can rub a j&B patch on the outside of your barrel and make it black. This goes for other abrasive cleaners as well.
I do chuckle when I here about people lapping lugs with J&B.
 
What about minimizing barrel damage through use of the bore snake type devices? I have one, obtained from somewhere for a 22 rifle where you punch a patch through with the sharp end of a long plastic string (like weed eater material), and push the patch to the other end where it catches on a button, smaller than the rifle bore. Push the pointed end down the barrel until it emerges, grab, and pull through. Way easier than a rod, rod guide, and jags. I don't know if it is any more or less effective than the cleaning rod, but I saw no difference so far in an AR15 223.

- Phil
 
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