A Barrel That

H

harrydeneen

Guest
SHOOTS IN THE WIND IS A RARE PIECE..NOT TO STEP ON BC THREAD I WILL START MY OWN SINCE I HAVE A LITTLE EXPERIENCE WITH WIND, BARREL , CHAMBER ,AMMO, LUBE ECT... I KNOW SHOOTERS WOULD LIKE TO KNOW THE ANSWER TO THAT QUESTION .. BUT THERE IS NO BLACK AND WHITE ANSWER.. WE CAN ONLY GO BY WHAT I CALL PROCESS OF ELIMINATION.. I WILL GIVE MY OPINION ON SOME OF THE QUESTIONS ASK.. I THINK SHOOTERS THAT HAVE ALOT OF EXPERIENCE SHOOTING OVER THE YEARS IN THE WIND EVERY WEEK WILL HAVE A BETTER INSIGHT THAN SOME ONE WHO ONLY SHOOTS IN GOOD CONDITIONS TO TEST RIFLES AND AMMO.. I THINK THAT IT WOULD BE BETTER FOR SOME OF YOU TO GIVE SOME EXAMPLES OF WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO YOU IN SOME MATCHES THAT YOU SHOT FROM WEEK TO WEEK.. ALL INPUT WOULD BE A HELP TO SOME ONE IN SOME WAY.. I WILL GIVE A EXAMPLE THAT ALOT OF YOU CAN RELATE TO BECAUSE THIS HAPPENED AT THE ARA NATIONALS A FEW YEARS BACK AND THERE WERE ALOT OF OBSERVERS.. I STARTED OUT SHOOTING MY SUHL THAT WAS JUST REBARRELED. IT WAS WINDY AND THE WIND WOULD MOVE THE BULLETS AROUND FROM FIFTY TO FIFTY.. I THEN WENT AND GOT MY TURBO THAT HAS A PERFECT CHAMBER IN IT AS MY SUHL HAD.. BOTH HIGHLY POLISHED AND MARK FREE .. THE TURBO SHOT RINGS AROUND THE SUHL IN THE WIND. THEY BOTH WERE EQUAL IN CALM CONDITIONS.. I THINK I SHOT AROUND A 2300 WHEN WITH THE OTHER GUN I COULD NOT GET OFF THE SIGHTERS AND ONLY HAD A FEW MINUTES LEFT TO SHOOT THE WHOLE TARGET.. THESE BOTH WERE LILJA BARRELS AND SIXTEEN TWIST.. MY FIRST SUHL WOULD ALSO SHOOT IN ANY KIND OF WIND AND IT WAS A SEVENTEEN TWIST.. MY FIRST CONCLUSION FROM EXPERIENCE IS THAT A POLISHED CHAMBER DOES NOT MEAN MUCH IN THE WIND... SECOND HOW MANY OF YOU SHOOTERS HAVE GOT GUNS THAT SHOOT GOOD IN THE WIND AND HAVE SOME MARKS IN THEM ?.. WHAT SAY YOU SHOOTERS ON THIS MATTER? I HAVE MY THOUGHTS ON THIS AND WILL GET TO SOME OF THEM IN MORE DETAIL LATER.... :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:... HARRY..
 
Harry,Hope your holiday was great,I agree with you on the chambers & the ability to shoot in the Wind,I do not think that Calfee is wrong,But rather ,His data that he collects is from Rifles that he shoots on his home range,There are a whole lot of variables that are present when one steps up to the bench on a unfamiliar range & things go wrong very fast,We have been there & seen it happen.One needs to see a lot of different conditions to be able to draw a concrete conclusion on a theory.I do not Burnish my chambers,However i do deburr the leade angle,I think that a chamber is as close as perfect as it can get if you have set everything up correct & dailed in,The chamber will burnish itself & it will still be in perfect alignment with the bore.I did a chamber on a test & it was a mirror finish,I did not make any noticable difference,except that the cases came out black.I think that there are shooters that have a special ability to shoot in windy conditions & it does not matter what rifle that you have,you can not beat them on certain days,Gaston proved that in St Louis this year,He flat out shot everyone there,& he could of done it with any good rifle that he shot.There are not any Magic rifles out there,One needs some luck & good ammo,But above all else,confidence in his or her ability to handlw what ever mother nature sends.A Calfee,Myers ,Messer or who ever gun will not bail you out if you shoot stupid. BILL
 
Harry, Bill,
Hope you guys had a nice Christmas and wish you a Happy New Year. I can relate what I've noticed in my limited experience shooting at different ranges in all types of conditions. I've noticed that some barrels/rifle combos favor some conditions and hate others. I have a couple that are predictable in different wind conditions, meaning they aren't wind resistant but act as you'd expect in a 10 oclock wind, 4 oclock wind, etc.. I tested another barrel for a while that was 16 twist and .217-.2215 bore .2250 straight chamber, 2 degree leade, with about 2 tenths choke in it that shot great in calm but very poor in windy conditions, drifted a lot. Couldn't get used to the drift. It shot well, just had to hold off a ring or more for the same conditions, than I did with my other barrel? Was it the barrel or ammo? The rifle would shoot groups in the .1's in calm conditions. I set it aside for an indoor barrel, but haven't yet tested it indoors.
I agree with Bill that if you don't pay attention to the flags it makes no difference on who made the rifle. Still, it helps if you have a rifle capable of shooting in the .0's and .1's and know what conditions it prefers to do that in.
On my 17.5 twist and 16.5 twist barrels, I'd give the edge to the 17.5 twist in deflection by about the width of a target line, how ever many thousanths that is? Not much!
 
Barrel and ammo

Let me add something else to this thread. At the old Tuckertown barn I shot a world record at the barn, a 749 and 56 Xs the ammo that I was useing was the Eley Tenex (the Red Box) I still have a brick and I have tired this ammo at different ranges and the barn at acquadale. The rifle is the turbo that Bill Calfee built, I can not get the ammo to shoot at anyplace. I wish someone could explain this to me. Today if I ordered some ammo from Bob and this lot was in it I would cull it first.
 
Tom.
I sure can't answer your question but had a similar thing happen in 2006. I had a good lot of ammo that I shot a 749-57X and a couple more 749's and a few 748's outdoors. I took it to Rocky River Barn and it wouldn't shoot for beans there. I ended up borrowing some ammo from Gary Lemons to shoot the match that weekend. The ammo was awesome outdoors, but pitiful indoors? I shot several more 250's with it outdoors after the indoor match. It just wasn't the right ammo for indoors, why, I can't say? It wasn't the wind, that's for sure.
 
My 40X with it's 16 twist, 6 groove Hart barrel is a proven shooter. It's shot 250's at every range I've ever shot it at, except for one, and has shot multiple 249's at that one. With ammo it likes, and proper tune, I still hold off into the 9 ring, or sometimes even the 8, in winds over 10mph. It shoots like Kent said, predictable. Good ammo will do the exact same thing every time in the same wind. If any round on a target goes "into the wind" or flies high or low, I KNOW it's my fault.

I borescoped this rifle for the first time at the IR50/50 Nat. at Canastota this year, and found a huge scratch straight through the chamber, just barely into the leade at 12'oclock. I won the 4-Gun this year with this gun( and placed 2nd last year). This thread has me wondering if I'd be able to hold closer to the ten ring if the scratch wasn't there? I'm more inclined to think that the 23" inches of barrel after the chamber has more of an effect on how the gun shoots. Either way, I wish I hadn't looked at the barrel with the borescope!
Todd
 
Mr. Sink, you raise a great point as well. It seems to be increasinly more apparant that with some big indoor matches the last couple years that we have great guns that shoot outdoors with or without some wind and then we have "barn" guns for lack of a better term and quite often the two are'nt the same be it tune or ammo, most often ammo. Anybody want to step up here with an opinion?
 
tim said:
Mr. Sink, you raise a great point as well. It seems to be increasinly more apparant that with some big indoor matches the last couple years that we have great guns that shoot outdoors with or without some wind and then we have "barn" guns for lack of a better term and quite often the two are'nt the same be it tune or ammo, most often ammo. Anybody want to step up here with an opinion?
Click to expand...

Probably the same situation that the centerfire competitors are constantly chasing, commonly referred to as "variations in density altitude". This is probably even more intensified in the differences between "outdoor" and "indoor" competitions....................Don
 
Thanks Guys

FOR RESPONDING.. I HAVE FOUND THAT A GOOD LAPPED BARREL IS REALLY IMPORTANT BECAUSE WHEN THE LUBE IS ADDED TO THE BORE THEN THERE IS LESS FRICTION ON THE BULLET TO CAUSE DRAG .. A PERFECT ROUND BORE IS A MUST SO THAT THE BULLET DOES NOT GET DISTORTED.. YOU MUST HAVE A ROUND BULLET THAT EXITS THE BARREL....NOT TO GET OFF THE SUBJECT THESE ARE A FEW THINGS THAT ARE NEEDED FOR A RIFLE TO SHOOT IN THE WIND.. ITS ALSO ALOT EASIER TO TUNE THEM WHEN THERE IS LESS FRICTION ON THE BULLET.. I HAVE SHOT MANY EIGHT GROVE BARRELS OVER THE YEARS AND HAVE NEVER FOUND ONE THAT WOULD SHOOT IN WIND OVER TEN MPH.. THEY JUST WONT SHOOT.. IAM SURE MY FRIEND BOB HOLBRUNNER CAN ATTEST TO THIS... I BELIEVE THIS IS BECAUSE THERE IS TO MUCH PROPELLER EFFECT WHEN BULLET EXITS THE BARREL AND A GOOD LAPPED AND TUNED BARREL DONT SEEM TO ERASE ALL THE ERATIC EFFECT THAT THE EIGHT GROOVES HAS ON THE BULLET IN THE WIND....... THERE ARE A BUNCH OF GOOD BARREL MAKERS NOW THAT CAN PRODUCE WINNERS... MOST OF THESE COMPANYS ARE LAPPING THESE BARRELS SOMEWHAT... TODD... I REMEMBER THAT YOU CREEDMORED ME FOR THE FOUR GUN... I KNOW YOU FEEL BAD ABOUT THAT... KEEP YOUR THOUGHS COMMING... ONE MORE THING AS COLUMBO ALWAYS SAID! ANY BARREL MUST HAVE A GOOD LUBE BASE TO BE ALL IT CAN BE.... :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: HARRY...
 
Harry: from your last post, if less friction and less drag are so important in the barrel, then why don't more .22 shooters use moly coat or similar products on both the barrel bore and bullets? It seems by your comment on lube, we are back at square one, and you agree with Bill that the important factor is the hint, "wax". Best regards Plum
 
I agree that if the bullet is out of round it will increase drag while in flight and therefore will increase drift. But, the rifling marks themselves start well back of the tip and would very probably be buried in the boundary layer. During WWII a German Engineer decided to put a fairing on the ME109 tail wheel. The original Engineer had it right; the tail wheel was inside the boundary layer so the fairing didn't reduce drag.

Mark
 
Mark, I have a question

Sounds like you are well informed on aerodynamics.

Regarding the bundary layer and the rifling being behind the boundary layer, does this apply to subsonic as well as supersonic? Since in rimfire we try to keep our bullet subsonic, I was just wondering if this still applied?

Thanks in advance for your answer.

Charlie
 
Plum

My Thoughts Are Exactly What Charlie Said.. At Subsonic Speed Wax Is All That Is Needed.. I Do Agree With Bill Calfee .. I Usally Takes About Five Or Six Shots To Lube A Barrel.. Some Call It Fouling.. Less Pressure When A Bullet Exits Is Always Good... If The Bore Is Perfectly Round When It Exits It Will Wobble Less And Go Straight.. Not Like A Bullet That Is Deformed One Way Or Another... I Think That Is Why Alot Of The Two And Four Groove Barrels Are Doing Well.. :):):) Harry..
 
cpeters said:
Sounds like you are well informed on aerodynamics.

Regarding the bundary layer and the rifling being behind the boundary layer, does this apply to subsonic as well as supersonic? Since in rimfire we try to keep our bullet subsonic, I was just wondering if this still applied?

Thanks in advance for your answer.

Charlie
Click to expand...
It applies to subsonic, just like the ME109. It is interesting the 2 and 4 groove shoot better. If the marks are in the flow, they might act like a tabulator and actually keep the flow laminar longer reducing drag. Ever notice the small pieces of metal in the leading edge of a wing or in front of a control surface? I'll do a little research.

Aerodynamics is a hobby so most of my experience came out of books related to airplanes and sailboats, not projectiles. But the same theories should be at work.

Mark
 
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Harry,
I agree with BC and you on the lube, but I also believe the finish inside the bore has to be such at to retain the lube. What that perfect finish is, I don't know? I do know I lapped a barrel a while back that had a lot of imperfections in it, but still had a dimension that would allow some degree of choke after lapping it. It was a factory barrel, and just an experiment. After lapping it to a 400 grit finish I took the rifle and shot it and shot a 248-15X IR target with it, missed the last 2 shots but that was my fault, I was a in a hurry to finish the target. When I took the rifle back home and cleaned it, it cleaned up easily, just some wet and dry patches and she was clean. I decided to go back over it and polish it some more with 1000 grit. The next test, it shot as well, but in cleaning it took much longer to get the carbon out of it, and took longer to get the patches to come out white.
So, I went back over it again and touched it up with 400 grit again and left it at that. Bear in mind that this wasn't a custom barrel, just a factory barrel with the bore diminsions of .2170-.2220 as it ended up, with just a touch of choke the last 3" at the muzzle, 52D match chamber. It's my squirrel rifle:)
my thoughts are that the proper surface finish (I sure don't know what that is) grabs lube and holds it there and mantains a consistent bore and keeps the bore slick. It'd take a lot of work and experimenting to draw any conclusive results. I just thought I'd mention this one since you mentioned "wax".
 
hey harry

the boys in pennsylvania say
hi and bring lots of quarters this year
to fairchance they need em for the
toll road. see ya then.
 
Harry, i have no clue on how to chamber, lap or any smithing for that matter. Assuming that the barrel that is being used is right from the get go from whomever is building the rifle, then assuming we can eliminate those variables.

I will also assume If there are any imperfections through out the bore, the bullet will not stabilize quick enough and the POI will be more apparent at the target in windy conditions.

I agree with the lube and if the lube will stay consistent over time and with changes in weather. Some of the folks here have been testing cheaper ammo in their CMP rifles trying different lubes with great results, especially in windy conditions. We can't change the lube, but this last batch of Eley that came in, is a good example.

I shot my pistol today in winds gusting to over 30 mph, with the average being 16.4 mph, shooting 3 different lots of Eley with no change in POI. and with awesome results. Apparently the barrel on this pistol is junk according to the previous owner and from the builder. Little do they know how awesome it does shoot in both calm and windy conditions.

Other than that, I have no clue.

Take Care.......Joe
 
Kent hit it

Kent confirmed, what several old timers & top barrel makers have told me in the past. You can get a bore too slick. I'll bet that's what BC means, when he says he has to deglaze some of his barrels after the accuracy falls off.
 
Kent

HAS HIT ON A GOOD POINT THAT I HAVE NOT MENTIONED YET.. THE INSIDE DIMENTIONS.. KENT I LIKE THE DIMENTIONS THAT YOU MENTIONED AND I ALSO KNOW WHAT A COUPLE TOP SMITHS LIKE.. BUT I WOULD LIKE TO SE IF THEY WILL COME IN AND GIVE SOME OF ADVICE.. IAM NO GUNSMITH BUT I KNOW WHAT HAS WORKED FOR ME OVER THE YEARS.. SINCE AMMO IS NOT THE PROBLEM . A GUN AND AMMO MATCH WILL NOT BE THAT HARD TO FIND SO OTHER VARIABLES COME INTO PLAY...HERE IS WHAT I WOULD RECOMEND TO A SHOOTER THAT PLANS TO SHOOT IN A GOOD MANY MATCHES AND WANTS TO BE COMPETITIVE AND HAVE A CHANCE TO WIN... I DONT MEAN TO BE HARSH SO PLEASE DONT TAKE IT THAT WAY.. FIRST I WOULD GO AND SHOOT ALL YOUR BR RIFLES IN A WINDY CONDITION.. IF YOU HAVE TWO,THREE ,FOUR. GUNS THEN KEEP THE ONE THAT SHOOTS IN THE WIND AND SELL THE REST OF THEM.. IF YOU HAVE A HUMMER INDOORS AND YOU SHOOT INDOORS ALOT THEN KEEP THAT ONE ALSO.. MOST SHOOTERS SHOOT THERE BEST GUN WHEN THEY GO TO A BIG MATCH ANY WAYS... I KNOW SOME WILL SAY HARRY I CAN PRACTICE WITH MY LESSER GUN AND SAVE MY GOOD ONE! I SAY THIS IS A NO NO... THE HARSH REALITY IS SHOOT YOUR BEST GUN ALL THE TIME IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO HAVE A CHANCE AT WINNING AND PRACTICE WITH THAT GUN IN THE WIND ALSO AND WHEN YOU GET TO A MATCH YOU WILL HAVE MORE CONFIDENCE AND YOU WILL BE ON YOUR WAY... SELL THE OTHER GUNS AND START BUILDING ANOTHER WITH THAT MONEY.. TRY TO GET ANOTHER WIND GUN BECAUSE IF YOU DONT YOU WILL BE WAISTING YOUR TIME AND MONEY SHOOTING A GUN THAT WONT COMPETE AGAINST SOME OTHERS... EVEN IF YOU ARE A BETTER SHOT THE GUNS THAT SHOOT IN THE WIND WILL PREVAIL... JOE, IAM SURE THAT PISTOL IS AWSOME.. AFTER ALL THE GUY WHO BUILD IS PRETTY GOOD.. YOU ARE THE ONLY ONE THAT HAS TO BE PLEASED WITH IT.... :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: HARRY...
 
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