6ppc neck clearance ??
- Thread starter Tim Singleton
- Start date
Think I agree with Hovis. Y'all need an understanding of the elasticity of steel (as pertains to the barrel), and esp. brass (as it pertains to the cartridge case), and where the elasticity is the least. And that would be at the shoulder. There is almost always a need to bump the shoulder before sizing down the sidewalls of a case.
Remember, if you run full-but-lower-than-typical-benchrest pressures -- say, in the 50-52K (piezo) region, you often don't need to size cases at all.
Edit: and the differing elasticities is one reason why getting the barrel chamber size just right -- and a thick enough tenon -- are so important.
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Tim Singleton
Member
I'm going to give Harrels a call tomorrow.
I agree it doesn't seem like it would be sizing the body at the shoulder junction down when it's not setting the shoulder back any.
I think the brass moving up into the neck area was causing my neck thickness inconsistency. I was trimming to length regularly but not turning necks each time I trimmed. I had not checked OAL loaded round in a while. Just didn't put 2+2 together.
I re turned all necks back to .0082 or as close to that as I can get. Some had gotten up to .009 thick others were .0085.
Ill see how things go tomorrow with loaded rounds now a more consistent dimension.
I agree it doesn't seem like it would be sizing the body at the shoulder junction down when it's not setting the shoulder back any.
I think the brass moving up into the neck area was causing my neck thickness inconsistency. I was trimming to length regularly but not turning necks each time I trimmed. I had not checked OAL loaded round in a while. Just didn't put 2+2 together.
I re turned all necks back to .0082 or as close to that as I can get. Some had gotten up to .009 thick others were .0085.
Ill see how things go tomorrow with loaded rounds now a more consistent dimension.
Yes, from your post I will agree that your die sounds too small, a very common situation and one they will rectify free of charge IME
Jack Neary trims his brass. A lot.
Measuring stuff is hard.
al
Boyd Allen
Active member
I am lucky in that my go to die was intentionally designed not to mess with the shoulder diameter. It comes out as it went in. I get .0005 at the back, nothing at the shoulder, a .001 or slightly less bump, and whatever the bushing gives me for the neck. I mention this for two reasons. Sized this way cases chamber effortlessly, and if I keep a close eye on the bump so as not to let it exceed my sepc., case trimming is hardly ever needed. The fun part is that I have about five different inserts for the back of this die, so whatever chamber I need to size for, I have it covered. It is an out of production Harrell's Vari-Base die. Say what you will about them, but mine seems to work really well. Another little aside, a while back I had a well used case that I had stepped on pretty hard, which had developed a click. My shell holder has been shortened, so I could screw out the insert a turn or so, increasing the reach of the die down the case by that much, without affecting the bump. End of problem. Another thing, the inserts almost have a square edge at at the end of their IDs, with the edge barely rounded at all, so the die works closer to the shell holder.
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Mr. Singleton,
At the risk of offending you, here's what I'd suggest.
First, buy some already prepped brass from, say, Ron Hoehn
http://www.benchrest.com/hoehn/html/ammo___brass.html
Done this myself in the days I was working and had more money than time. It costs a little, but it will be correct. In your case, save your own brass for your next set of cases, you'll need them soon enough, and downstream, you'll know enough so you won't waste money by ruining cases.
Second, get a kinda, sorta mentor. You don't say where you're from, but likely there is some experienced benchrest shooter at a nearby range (else you got even more trouble -- where you going to shoot? Against whom?)
It is all confusing at first. I still remember, even though it's been 25+ years. The guy I bought my rifle from helped me through the first steps. I wasn't really good to go then, but it did save me some frustration and wasted money.
For example: Your die doesn't bump the shoulder -- but that could be a factor of how far you're shoving the case into the die. If you shove the case in further, at some point, the shoulder will be bumped. What's going on just now involves several variables; I'm not sure you've presented things so that what's being said is appropriate. We on the forum make assumptions, too.
The .003 reduction AFTER the case is taken from the die does seem a bit much -- .001 is ideal, but I'd not be sure of your measurements at this point.
What really matters at this point is getting reasonable ammunition, and a lot of practice. The internet is a good place for swapping all sorts of technical information, a bad place to practice shooting. But you're already overloaded with technical information. Too much, some of it wrong.
I haven't read Tony Boyer's new book, but I've read some of the things he wrote (interviews, really) from the late 1990s. Good stuff. Emphasis on what should be emphasized. I also know some of the people involved in it's publication (Larry Costa); he's good people too. I suspect that would be more value to you than continued internet talk at this point.
Good luck to you.
At the risk of offending you, here's what I'd suggest.
First, buy some already prepped brass from, say, Ron Hoehn
http://www.benchrest.com/hoehn/html/ammo___brass.html
Done this myself in the days I was working and had more money than time. It costs a little, but it will be correct. In your case, save your own brass for your next set of cases, you'll need them soon enough, and downstream, you'll know enough so you won't waste money by ruining cases.
Second, get a kinda, sorta mentor. You don't say where you're from, but likely there is some experienced benchrest shooter at a nearby range (else you got even more trouble -- where you going to shoot? Against whom?)
It is all confusing at first. I still remember, even though it's been 25+ years. The guy I bought my rifle from helped me through the first steps. I wasn't really good to go then, but it did save me some frustration and wasted money.
For example: Your die doesn't bump the shoulder -- but that could be a factor of how far you're shoving the case into the die. If you shove the case in further, at some point, the shoulder will be bumped. What's going on just now involves several variables; I'm not sure you've presented things so that what's being said is appropriate. We on the forum make assumptions, too.
The .003 reduction AFTER the case is taken from the die does seem a bit much -- .001 is ideal, but I'd not be sure of your measurements at this point.
What really matters at this point is getting reasonable ammunition, and a lot of practice. The internet is a good place for swapping all sorts of technical information, a bad place to practice shooting. But you're already overloaded with technical information. Too much, some of it wrong.
I haven't read Tony Boyer's new book, but I've read some of the things he wrote (interviews, really) from the late 1990s. Good stuff. Emphasis on what should be emphasized. I also know some of the people involved in it's publication (Larry Costa); he's good people too. I suspect that would be more value to you than continued internet talk at this point.
Good luck to you.
Tim Singleton
Member
No offense taken.
I live in western NC close to TN line. Not a short range benchrest part of the country. I don't know anyone personally to act as a mentor. I really dont want to miss out on learning to prep my own cases i think thats part of the whole experience.
Without the input of guys from this forum I'm pretty much left to my own trial and error. I compete against myself at this point. I've only been shooting 6ppc 6-8 months or so.
Boyd Allen, as well as some other guys have been very helpful.
I think I will continue to ask questions and learn from those willing to share. After all, I hear there is a need for new shooters in the BR game. My plan is to be able to travel to a couple matches next year without embarrassing my self to badly
Tim
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Tim,
Well it would be a fair hike, but Rockingham Gun Club (just north of Greensboro) is within reach, and we hold club-level matches (with some pretty good shooters) the 4th Sat of the month. Usually score, but all calibers shot are pluggged with a .30 this year, so a PPC is at no disadvantage. And the skills are the same, pretty much, as with group. In fact, I'll be there tomorrow, along with some other BR Central folk.
http://www.rockinghamcountygunclub.com/rcgc_shootingvenues_centerfire_rifle.html
Closer for you, maybe, would be Unaka, and one of their BR shooters, Matthew Keller does post to BR Central. You could ask him about shooting there; they probably have something other than the twice-a-year NBRSA sanctioned shoots. Unaka is also the home range of Jim Carmichael, the (ex) Outdoor Life shooting editor, and a pretty nice guy.
http://www.unakarodandgun.com/
Also, there are sanctioned matches occasionally held near Boone, and maybe they are still holding some at one or more of the three ranges near Charlotte. They shoot short-range IBS score matches at Piedmont, though it is better known for 600 yards. Just by the way, with reference to Piedmont, on a mildish day, the PPC with 66-grain bullets can hold it's own at 600 yards. An older shooter, Cheechako, has had a win or two at 600 with a PPC...
Moving on to Tennessee, Jerry Sharrett is in the Eastern part of Tennessee (he posts here), as is Jeff Summers. Jeff doesn't post to BR central, but he does do things like win the Super Shoot (twice). Not sure where they shoot aside from Unaka, but I think there is another range involved with BR in Eastern Tennessee near the Carolina border.
Could be worse for you -- I live in Durham. Unaka is about a 4 hour drive for me & I've been known to go to matches there.
Boyd, on the other hand, lives in California...
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Tim Singleton
Member
Unaka in Johnson city is only about an hour and half from me. That sounds like a good place to start
Thanks
Tim
Thanks
Tim
Boyd Allen
Active member
Charles,
Good post.
Boyd
Good post.
Boyd
JerrySharrett
Senile Member
Within the Tri-City area of East Tennessee (Bristol, Kingsport, Johnson City) we are fortunate to have 4 pretty nice gun clubs.
The best, Kettlefoot in Bristol has a new 30 bench HP range to 300 yards, a new 60 bench rimfire range that shoots PSL, ARA and IR 50/50. as well as 4 trap/skeet fields, Sporting Clays, 5-stand, 9 IDPA ranges, etc. (Open 24/7)
Second, Cherokee R&G in Kingsport, has 2 covered ranges to 200 yards (20 bench size) , 2 trap and 1 skeet field. Shoots a lot of vintage military, etc. (Open daylight to dark M-Sat, noon to 6PM Sundays.)
Third, Unaka, 20 bench covered to 200 yards, 4 trap/skeet fields...only problem here there must be a qualified range officer on duty to use these ranges.
Fourth, Wilderness Road, trap, skeet, ARA rimfire etc.
All the above have web sites.
Hunter
Chasin' the Sunset
That sounds like an interesting alternative to using the ultimate benchrest targets; I wonder why all clubs don't do that.
Because the people who spend more money for the larger bullets and absorb the increased recoil, to get the advantage of a larger hole, would suddenly be disadvantaged.
The alternate view seems to be "we need more shooters." But then, if what you want is more shooters, why not offer sexual gratification, drugs, and booze? Whorehouses have a record of success dating back several millennium.
JerrySharrett
Senile Member
Cnarles, I stopped shooting trap because of all the sex, violence and money payoffs. Now you want to corrupt this upstanding sport!!
No, I don't. I was one of the old geezers who remarked that the changes to American Skeet (allowing the shooter to start gun up & requiring an instantaneous pull) were a bad ideas. But everyone wanted to brag they broke 25 straight. Now many national-level shooters won't even go out on a windy day, for fear they won't go the whole year without a miss. And when we have to compete with the rest of the world, International style, we're at a disadvantage.
My only reason to get the 6PPC ready for club-level score matches is a fine long-range shooter wants to give point-blank a try, so I'll lend him a gun. And I'm selfish enough to want to shoot the match, too. But my PPC will be a .30...
Perhaps we're getting off-topic? IMSLTHO, What Mr. Singleton needs to do is go shoot, so when he shoots poorly, as almost all beginners do, he won't be trying to blame the performance on minor technical things.
Butch Lambert
Active member
Now CharlesE,
I shot pretty good my first year. I did not know anything. I used 27.5 grains of H322, 68 grain Berger bullets just touching the lands. I changed nothing as I didn't know you could. I just watched the flags and shot. The next year I bought an additional rifle, fancier flags, 3 different types of bullets and so on. Second year was a disaster.
Tim will be fine.
I shot pretty good my first year. I did not know anything. I used 27.5 grains of H322, 68 grain Berger bullets just touching the lands. I changed nothing as I didn't know you could. I just watched the flags and shot. The next year I bought an additional rifle, fancier flags, 3 different types of bullets and so on. Second year was a disaster.
Tim will be fine.
Tim Singleton
Member
I shot my first registered match this past weekend at Riverbend. More fun than I imagined. I didn't do to terribly bad placed 17th out of 29 in LV
Shot small group in HV and had a pretty decent agg going until I got my fingers in the wrong place while closing the bolt and touched a shot off that went an inch out of the group. This put me finishing 27 out of 29 in HV
I really want to thank Boyd and Butch for their help off and on over the last year. They have spent a lot of their time on the phone answering questions
Tim
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