6mm Berger -105VLD-?

S

Stephen B Moore

New member
Has anyone had any experience with the new 105's with
the THICK jacket ? I'm interested if they shoot as well as
the original 105VLD, same load, same pressures??
I plan on pushing them 3400fps + if they shoot well
there, may have to back up a little for best accuracy. The
originals came apart at that speed / rpm. They were fine
at about 3380fps, mollied.
I plan on shooting 600 & 1000 @ Sacramento soon so
I need to start tweakin' a load for two different guns,
two different chamberings.

LOADS of work to do!!! Steve Moore [pun intended]
 
YEP, they do- -

I talked to Andrea @ Bergers today, they have them in stock. Product no. 60-243105v-6. Midway also has them.
Bruno's not till the end of the month, maby.

There's a chance I may still get loaded!!
Steve Moore
 
Steve, what twist rate is the barrel in which you're shooting them? I saw the 115 thick at Bruno's the other day but no 105's yet.
 
German- -

Both bbls. 1/8. One a slightly improved 6-06, the other
a slightly improved 6mm Rem. I'll probably go ahead and
and order 500 from Midway, - both bbls. will maby be
toast by the time they are shot up.
Thanx for the replys, I was starting to think I finally
pissed everyone off!!
Steve Moore
 
Thanks Steve, I was wondering because I have a 1:7.5" twist on my 6XC and with RL17 it can go to 3300 but I've been concerned about shooting the Bergers at that speed; though I prefer Berger to other brands for match shooting. Nice to know the thick jackets are coming out in a variety of weights and types, that will let me put that powder to good use. Although with your experience at almost 3400 being good, I will probably try the normal jackets first since I have a lot of them on hand.
 
German...

I have shot the old 105s (molied) at 3300 for some time with good results.
 
thick 105's

How does one know if he has the 105's with a thicker jacket?Is there a specific lot #? or item #?
Lynn what is the lot # of your bullets?
Sorry for my ignorance ,but I didn't know they made 2 different 105 VLD's.
 
Matt-

I just received 500 from Midway. Lot # 1415. Boxed 100 to the box. Part # 243105V-THICK. On the box [if it could talk] it says For 1 in 8" twist or faster. BC= .556. Thick Jackets for Targets Only. Not Suitable For Hunting. I havn't checked them out yet. I'll bet Lynn will tell us if we need to weigh, sort by bearing length, trim meplat, moly, and what ever else we need to do. Maby I should just go shoot them and see. I would like to know his lot # also.
Lynn, congratulations on your small group, and who ever beat it!!
Steve Moore
 
I use them in a 6mm-250AI at just over 3400fps and they do fine, very accurate. However, they aren't the best bullet for bucking the wind at 1,000 yards. I think the 115 is a better bullet for 1,000 yard use and I'll keep the 105s for use at 600 yards.
 
If all of you all are indeed shooting the Berger 105 VLD's at the extraordinarily high velocitites that are being claimed (3300 fps, 3400 fps, etc.) I think you are all "hanging on the ragged edge" of bullet blow ups and probably near to blowing up something more than just a bullet in flight.

Maybe I am reading the postings wrong but it almost seems like a thread more about high velocity bragging rights than anything else. What about consistency and accuracy? One thing for sure, at 3300-3400 fps, you would no doubt roast a 6mm barrel in very very short order - maybe I just don't get it.

Robert Whitley
 
105 "thick"

I believe these are under development by Berger to be shot at higher velocities. I believe that at higher, 3300+, speeds with the old VLD bullet blow up may have been a problem. Speed is not always the problem with blowups in any case.
The higher speeds allow for shorter travel time, less wind deflection etc. IF you can achieve a good accuracy node at higher speeds then you have an advantage. Does it take a toll on your barrel? Probably but if we were all in this game to save money, we'd all be very frustrated by now.
 
Robert-

I appreciate your concern for all our safety. I don't profess to knowing about all the other people or their equipment or their safe loading practices. I have an Oehler 33 and a Pact Pro chronographs that i can set up in tandem, I'm not guessing about velocity. I am also getting single didget standard deviation. Maby you did "miss" the first post, and the rest. I wasn't bragging, I was seeking information which I received. For what ever it's worth my next bbl will probably be chambered 6x47 L. Thanks to all responders, but please don't tell me "The sky is falling, The sky is falling!!

Damn, that's the nicest I've ever been!

Steve Moore
 
FWIW I have tested and shot every "thick jacket" 6mm bullet Berger is currently making (i.e. 105 VLD Thick Jacket, 108 BT Thick Jacket, 105 BT Thick Jacket and 115 VLD Thick Jacket).

I guess I read these threads and what seems to pop out to me is a velocity, velocity and more velocity mantra, and I wonder why this appears to be such an overiding concern.

To me, I see shooting to be a combination of things in the following priority:

1. Accuracy first - without accuracy, velocity is of no value;
2. Consistency second - without consistency velocity is of no value either; and
3. Velocity third - if you have a consistently accurate load, velocity is helpful but not essential (look at all the great shooting that has been done at 600 and 1000 yards with the little 6BR cartridge).

So when I say maybe I just dont get it, that's where I am coming from.

Robert Whitley

P.S. Barrel life has never been of particular concern to me either, and my earlier comment was just an observation that when you run a 6mm that hard, the barrel is "toast" in short order.
 
Thanks Lynn-

I just learned a little moore.

Robert, you are right, sorta. I think it is moore of a RPM thing killing thin jacketed bullets than just speed and heat.

I may not be fast, but I'm not cheap!!

Steve moore
 
Lynn

If I were to accept your statements as "the gospel" then it seems to lead to the conclusion that unless a shooters bullets are going at a hyper speed, that shooter cannot be competitive in the game.

Maybe I am just reading match results different than you but I don't see that to be the case. Anyone can point to a match or even a record won here or there by some shooter shooting bullets at some supposed extraordinary velocity, but that doesn't mean just because that shooter did it and got away with it on a particular day that's how it has to be done or you are not competitive. I think it is interesting to read some of the interviews with guys who set records, and a fair amount of the time you see statements by them that they were just "lucky" on that day when they shot the record group. Clearly if you do enough shooting, you will get lucky and that's a part of it too.

Heck, if you feel you just are not going to be any good unless your 6mm bullets are going 3500+ fps, well go to it, but make no mistake about it, many of the 6mm longer range bench rest matches and records were never won or set with bullets going anywhere near that fast.

Robert Whitley
 
Rob and Lynn

Rob, if velocity were female, you'd be queer :D

No offense, I couldn't resist.

If I may...

I know you both to be very thoughtful, deliberate, and successful shooters who know what you're doing. This might be a simple miscommunication that can be fixed.

I've seen Rob react to claims of super high velocity in the same way many times. I think we all agree that pushing the ragged edge of structural integrity is unsafe, and usually doesn't result in the best accuracy.
I think Lynn's piont is that for large capacity 6mm cases (like the 6mm-06, and the 6mm-284) 3300 fps may be a moderate velocity for a 107 grain bullet. If the thick jacketed bullets stay together at those speeds, and accuracy is there, then what's wrong with it?

On the other hand...

Rob got me thinking a long time ago about some possible real world side effects of super high velocity. To wit: 3300 fps may be a comfortable speed for a large capacity 6mm chambering, but it may not be a comfortable speed for the bullet, specifically while it's accelerating so quickly in the barrel. Even if the bullets are surviving, is it possible that the high pressures deform (set-back) the bullets ogive in the barrel, and they emerge with a different, more 'smushed' nose than bullets fired at slower velocities? If this is possible, then it could diminish the net ballistic advantage of increased velocity.

So I can see both points. If the bullets have thick jackets and never fail when fired at high speed from a large capacity chambering, then on paper the ballistics are decidedly better. Many match records back this up. However, there may be the possibility that the super fast acceleration 'damages' the bullet in an unexpected way, which causes 'real world' results to differ from what's predicted on paper.

On a related note, I have measured differences in BC for lead tipped bullets fired at different velocities. Without getting into too many specifics, a lead tipped bullet can have up to ~10-15% lower BC when fired 200 fps faster. My theory is that the extra velocity mushrooms the lead tip in the barrel, causing more drag downrange. Could the same thing happen to the ogive of open tip match bullets?

-Bryan
 
Lynn said:
Robert
What I said isn't "the gospel" or some off the wall statement it is the cold hard facts.The typical 1000 yard 6mm gun we shoot has a node at 3200 and another around 3425 fps.That will change with varying barrel lengths but you won't find a competitive 105-108 grain bullet flying at 3325 fps.
Lynn
Click to expand...


This is why I love this website.....A "less informed" guy like me can learn new things. You state 3425 and 3200 as "nodes" or sweet spots. My (exploding) dasher, before things went bad, liked a load that everyone said was wrong (31.3 RL 15) Everyone said at 32.6- 33.0 RL15 I will find THE load. In my experience, every gun is different, so I took this info with a grain of salt, and tested EVERYTHING. Evedently , sometimes, things ARE carved in stone, and are considered "rules"

My dasher has now had the chamber re reamed with a longer throat, and I am going to start over with load development. Are there "nodes" at the slower speeds I will get with a dasher (30" tube)? I am going to do a "proper" ladder test as soon as weather permits.

I guess I could just call Sierra, but this is more FUN!!:D

Thanks,
Tod
 
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I have not shot long range matches due to time and range limitations. Mostly I have to stick to the short range BR stuff. However for 50 years I have been shooting the 25-06. This season I am using the 115 Berger VLD tips over VV N-170 @ 3,100 in a shorter rechambered heavy barrel. I have been following this thread with great interest.

Clearly youall understand the 06 and 284 case and pressures better than I do. I am planning to rebarrel after Hunting season and had been considering going to a 6.5 284 or another 25 in either 06 or 284. I have three short action Rem BR rifles w 308 bolt face. All are currently set up for 100-200 yard BR.

After looking at all the options I have been thinking that a 25-284 may be a good choice as I now after many many years have fairly good bullet choices for the 257 diameter.

Based on the performance of the 6-284 seems to me that with a .257 115 VLD bullet out of a 284, or an 06 case with a 29" barrel I should be able to get up to 3,500 fps with out excessive pressure.

I would be very interested to hear your comments.

Thank you
Octopus
 
Lynn-

The answer is YESSSS! I would run a dragster, even my Wife's two wheeled walker if they would let me. I would give my left you know what to drive a Sprint Cup Series, but alas, none of the above will happen. Bullets n' race cars-- the faster you drive 'em, the moore likely you are to wreck them. But then again, most of my groups are referred to as being "train wrecks"!
If I remember correctly my 25-06 with 120 Sierras shot well at about 3100 fps. This was not a "race ready" bench gun.

The advantage of the walker is you only have to change two tires at a pit stop!

Steve Moore
 
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