SGJennings
New member
A lot of people in the BR HoF believe that there is a correlation between neck tension and what happens on the target.
If someone wanted a better handle in it, they could do a double-blind test shooting rounds with random neck tensions and see if there is a correlation between neck tension and group size.
Probably something for Mr. Beggs and his tunnel.
If someone wanted a better handle in it, they could do a double-blind test shooting rounds with random neck tensions and see if there is a correlation between neck tension and group size.
Probably something for Mr. Beggs and his tunnel.
And????
Are you trying to say something here?
I sez you'll be hard-pressed to draw a correlation betwixt neck tension and velocity. Why? Because I've sent tens of thousands of rounds over the chronograph.
Care to share some evidence to the contrary?
If there's anyone here to quote actual numbers, anyone here who's actually graphed and isolated those numbers it'll be Lou Murdica.
Meantime, the number of people on God's earth with the equipment and qualifications to SHOW a correlation VS speculate about it is vanishingly small.
al
Boyd Allen
Active member
Al,
Could it be that there is something that shows on the target, that does not very much on the chronograph, like timing to the muzzle? I do know that at the same seating depth and charge, changes in neck tension (6PPC, 133) have changed tune, and that below some minimum value, that it goes to heck in a handbasket. Years ago, Del told me that he and Steve were using quite a bit of neck tension with their 133 loads, and I bought a thousandth tighter bushing (Wilson), and flipped it, and saw an improvement, slight, but it was there. Of course nothing about this purports to be anywhere near scientific.
Boyd
Could it be that there is something that shows on the target, that does not very much on the chronograph, like timing to the muzzle? I do know that at the same seating depth and charge, changes in neck tension (6PPC, 133) have changed tune, and that below some minimum value, that it goes to heck in a handbasket. Years ago, Del told me that he and Steve were using quite a bit of neck tension with their 133 loads, and I bought a thousandth tighter bushing (Wilson), and flipped it, and saw an improvement, slight, but it was there. Of course nothing about this purports to be anywhere near scientific.
Boyd
SGJennings
New member
I challenge you to find where I made that assertion. Not where that's what you took away from what I said, but what I actually said.
That's one hypothesis. It's my current working hypothesis. And, other things held constant, I use velocity as a stand in for it because I can't find a good way to measure time to muzzle directly. If anyone has a good way, please let me know.
Roduato,
I hate to say this but you have burned up the best part of barrel life and haven't even found a good load/seating range. It should not take over 80-100 rds max to find out how well the rifle/barrel will work.
Buy Tony Boyers' book and follow what he says about tuning a rifle....there is really no other solid way. Once you get the hang of it, it won't take over 50 rds normally to find the best seating depth for a given bullet/powder.
If you follow the method (have good gun, good bullets, striaight rounds, good powder) and get to 100rds without seeing a competitive tune, about the only thing that will tune that gun is an action wrench.
Hovis
I hate to say this but you have burned up the best part of barrel life and haven't even found a good load/seating range. It should not take over 80-100 rds max to find out how well the rifle/barrel will work.
Buy Tony Boyers' book and follow what he says about tuning a rifle....there is really no other solid way. Once you get the hang of it, it won't take over 50 rds normally to find the best seating depth for a given bullet/powder.
If you follow the method (have good gun, good bullets, striaight rounds, good powder) and get to 100rds without seeing a competitive tune, about the only thing that will tune that gun is an action wrench.
Hovis
Boyd and SGJennings....I'll agree that many folks find a difference on the target, or seem to. For myself I've seen very little tuning gain from neck tension but I'm no expert. My rifles tune easily via seating depth and powder charge, velocity. What I HAVEN'T seen though is usable velocity differences from neck tension. (You didn't say that SGJennings. but it seemed implied by the inclusion of my quote in your post)
al
LOL!
I just realized you didn't even include my quote in your post..... just proximity I guess, I thought it was in reply.
al
LOL!
I just realized you didn't even include my quote in your post..... just proximity I guess, I thought it was in reply.
Last edited:
R
rodauto
Guest
Thanks for all the replies, I know I am bouncing all over the place.... seating depth, wind flags, technique, neck tesion, etc.
I am trying to figure this game out but my natural tendency to try to get everything done at once is likely to be my downfall!!
Knowing that I would burn out the barrel before getting any definitive results I bought a reamer and the go/no go gauges from PTG last year so I can prolong my quest for accuracy before buying a new barrel when the groups start to go "the wrong way".
I don't mean to sound flipent (not sure if that is the right word, or spelling) but I shoot first for fun and second for accuracy so I don't mind if it costs me a barrel as long as the result is tighter groups and more bragging rights!
Still looking for any guidance from you guys regarding what I have done so far as I have improved my groups considerable over the past 2 years using your advise. I will definately start trying 3 shot groups in my load development if for no other reason than that bullets are getting more expensive and harder to find!!
Rodney
I am trying to figure this game out but my natural tendency to try to get everything done at once is likely to be my downfall!!
Knowing that I would burn out the barrel before getting any definitive results I bought a reamer and the go/no go gauges from PTG last year so I can prolong my quest for accuracy before buying a new barrel when the groups start to go "the wrong way".
I don't mean to sound flipent (not sure if that is the right word, or spelling) but I shoot first for fun and second for accuracy so I don't mind if it costs me a barrel as long as the result is tighter groups and more bragging rights!
Still looking for any guidance from you guys regarding what I have done so far as I have improved my groups considerable over the past 2 years using your advise. I will definately start trying 3 shot groups in my load development if for no other reason than that bullets are getting more expensive and harder to find!!
Rodney
Something you have probably already figured out: ask 10 (or 100) bench shooters on how to tune a 6PPC and you'll get 200 answers. That is why it is a competitive sport. The joy is finding what works, the agony is not finding it until after the last target of the weekend.
Because I can't help it, here is my advice to you:
Number 1
The biggest thought process you need to get over right now is believing that you can find a "perfect" or even "good" load and stick with it -- that will only work if you are happy averaging in the '3s. To shoot consistently in the twos and smaller throughout any day, you have to make small adjustments -- call them micro-tune changes -- to get the gun to its razor-edge best. The goal is to learn what kinds of things cause variation, and how to respond to keep the gun on that edge.
Every top shooter has his own recipe of changes that he goes to as he sees changes in the target or feels changes in the conditions: powders and amounts, seating depth, and neck tension are the common ones, but far from the only options. The PPC is generally accepted as the most accurate cartridge in the world, or we would be shooting something else. But it has that reputation because it responds predictably and measurably to the small tuning changes, not because it doesn't need them.
The top shooter at the Nationals last year shot five different loads on the last five targets to win. Not a lot different, but if he hadn't been making adjustments, he probably would not have gotten the full potential out the gun. That is why an forum discussion of seating depth to 4 decimal places is simply the wrong way to approach your rifle. Much better to approach it as "as temperature does up increase (or decrease) (seating depth/powder charge)" or "holdoffs for the left wind are more predictable than the right wind on this range". These kinds of learning that will lead you shooting small and knowing why. Shooting small involves a very dynamic system and laughs at absolutes like case length, .258 bushings or 28.4 grains of PerfektPowder, even when the conditions you can measure seem the same. Adjust. Adjust. Adjust.
Number 2
Find some local competitions and get in them. As much fun as it is to shoot a small group, it is even more fun to know it is actually SMALL. Sometimes a .3 or even a .4 is really small at 100, sometimes it is big at 200. One real-world way to tell is to be side-by-side with other shooters and see what they are doing. A guy running a top-fuel dragster all by himself can post great times, but still have a dog of a car. Don't worry about the winning, beating other shooters, coming in last, or any of that horse-pucky. Competing is about learning, not winning. One weekend of competition will teach you more than 5000 rounds on the practice range. You will overhear a hundred tips that help you understand your gun and its capabilities. And some of the people around you will be genuinely friendly and actually desire to help you make that gun work. When you shoot your first match, your first small group, your first agg in the 2s, your first yardage top-10 you will be ecstatic. BR competition is not about beating someone else, it is about putting a framework around the reason you like to shoot small groups and being able to quantitatively measure your progress against yourself, not anyone else.
Number 3
There are two reasons for going to the range: first is tuning and second is practicing. To do either, you need to be able to make those adjustments I mentioned earlier. Take your flags and take enough equipment to load at your bench on those days. You need to be able to adjust something while you are shooting. The smart strategy is to adjust one thing at a time and pre-loading at home seriously limits the variety of things you can test. Take Notes. The best days in practice or competition are when you see something, make an adjustment on the fly, and it works. That is a sign that some of the learning is working.
Number 4
Find a mentor -- preferably a good, active competitor, and learn his system. This is not an armchair sport. It is not learned by averaging the comments of forum posters, mediocre performers, or listening to 20 pieces of advice from 20 sources. Good shooters each have their methods for analyzing results and adjusting, but those methods are not mix-and-match... pick one guy to help you and ignore the rest until he can't teach you any more.
Rod
Because I can't help it, here is my advice to you:
Number 1
The biggest thought process you need to get over right now is believing that you can find a "perfect" or even "good" load and stick with it -- that will only work if you are happy averaging in the '3s. To shoot consistently in the twos and smaller throughout any day, you have to make small adjustments -- call them micro-tune changes -- to get the gun to its razor-edge best. The goal is to learn what kinds of things cause variation, and how to respond to keep the gun on that edge.
Every top shooter has his own recipe of changes that he goes to as he sees changes in the target or feels changes in the conditions: powders and amounts, seating depth, and neck tension are the common ones, but far from the only options. The PPC is generally accepted as the most accurate cartridge in the world, or we would be shooting something else. But it has that reputation because it responds predictably and measurably to the small tuning changes, not because it doesn't need them.
The top shooter at the Nationals last year shot five different loads on the last five targets to win. Not a lot different, but if he hadn't been making adjustments, he probably would not have gotten the full potential out the gun. That is why an forum discussion of seating depth to 4 decimal places is simply the wrong way to approach your rifle. Much better to approach it as "as temperature does up increase (or decrease) (seating depth/powder charge)" or "holdoffs for the left wind are more predictable than the right wind on this range". These kinds of learning that will lead you shooting small and knowing why. Shooting small involves a very dynamic system and laughs at absolutes like case length, .258 bushings or 28.4 grains of PerfektPowder, even when the conditions you can measure seem the same. Adjust. Adjust. Adjust.
Number 2
Find some local competitions and get in them. As much fun as it is to shoot a small group, it is even more fun to know it is actually SMALL. Sometimes a .3 or even a .4 is really small at 100, sometimes it is big at 200. One real-world way to tell is to be side-by-side with other shooters and see what they are doing. A guy running a top-fuel dragster all by himself can post great times, but still have a dog of a car. Don't worry about the winning, beating other shooters, coming in last, or any of that horse-pucky. Competing is about learning, not winning. One weekend of competition will teach you more than 5000 rounds on the practice range. You will overhear a hundred tips that help you understand your gun and its capabilities. And some of the people around you will be genuinely friendly and actually desire to help you make that gun work. When you shoot your first match, your first small group, your first agg in the 2s, your first yardage top-10 you will be ecstatic. BR competition is not about beating someone else, it is about putting a framework around the reason you like to shoot small groups and being able to quantitatively measure your progress against yourself, not anyone else.
Number 3
There are two reasons for going to the range: first is tuning and second is practicing. To do either, you need to be able to make those adjustments I mentioned earlier. Take your flags and take enough equipment to load at your bench on those days. You need to be able to adjust something while you are shooting. The smart strategy is to adjust one thing at a time and pre-loading at home seriously limits the variety of things you can test. Take Notes. The best days in practice or competition are when you see something, make an adjustment on the fly, and it works. That is a sign that some of the learning is working.
Number 4
Find a mentor -- preferably a good, active competitor, and learn his system. This is not an armchair sport. It is not learned by averaging the comments of forum posters, mediocre performers, or listening to 20 pieces of advice from 20 sources. Good shooters each have their methods for analyzing results and adjusting, but those methods are not mix-and-match... pick one guy to help you and ignore the rest until he can't teach you any more.
Rod
Boyd Allen
Active member
Excellent post
B
Brian_K
Guest
Great advice, that’s going in my 6PPC file.
Brian
Brian
Wow That was such a good post, I can hardly believe I read on the net. I once talked to a guy at the St Lewis MO. range that was introduced to me as a National champion benchrest shooter. He said that when you stick the bullet into the lands neck tension doesn't matter any more. Ive always done that and never even concerned myself with neck tension. I don't know if that is right, wrong, good or bad, but believe I would have driven myself crazy if I had one more thing to worry about. Maybe I need a tuner and a Valium.
R
rodauto
Guest
Thanks Rod,
As much as I like tinkering with the loads for my rifle I have found that my biggest problem right now is technique. Having a rifle as accurate as this one is really shows me when I get lazy and don't pay attention to the flags, cheek weld etc. Once I am comfortable with my consistancy in my technique I would like to find a place close to compete just to see what it is like. You and all the other posters here have given me lots to think about. Now just have to make it work! For now 2s and 3s make me very happy, by the time I get to the point where they are the rule and not the exception I will either have shot out the barrell or have my technique down pat and be ready to look around for some competitions.
Rodney
Boyd Allen
Active member
Even if I am holding my rifle, I prefer to keep my face off of the stock, to be more consistent, and getting some taller rings helped that a lot.
R
rodauto
Guest
Hi Boyd,
I tried free recoil for a while and my groups were horrible. I need to get a proper rear bag before trying again. Want to get a proper leather bag with the solid base, I'm tired of mine stretching out and the ears going soft all the time! I think I remember a thread a while ago where you were going to try a different rear bag, can't remember if you posted how it worked out?
Rodney
Boyd Allen
Active member
A friend has a pretty good free recoil setup, better than mine, I think. He has an Edgewood Gator rear bag with medium ears of Cordura, and a gap between them that fits his stock right (whatever that is) These days I would probably go with some of that 3M super slick fabric on the ears, over whatever that maker recommends. My friend practices on a concrete bench that is a bit too smooth, and he figured out that his bag was sliding just a bit, so I got him a couple of full sheets of 150 grit sanding screen, and he cut them to the shape of the bag, when laid end to end. Sometimes I think that in the past I may not have realized that some of my tracking issuer were actually from very small bag movements, but recently, I have been shooting off of planed planks that are pretty slick, and that made the problem obvious. The sanding screen is the perfect anti-slip solution, no rock or bounce, and great traction. A while back I actually raised the pull weight of my trigger just a bit, so that I would have to concentrate a bit more when I pull it, to try to get away from rushing too much to catch a flag, and batting it. I may take it back down and see if I can do the same thing with a little more mental discipline.
Usually this is caused by an out of balance rifle, not bags and technique.
Several years ago, I had a very interesting conversation with a couple of top shooters. A gun he had been working on for a couple of years just never would shoot and he was giving it hell. He made a comment that he couldn't have shot that bad it he was slamming the rifle around. Well, me being me, I had to ask just how much of a difference bags and technique make. He stated, thousands and ten thousands. He also said, if your rifle is shooting threes and fours at a hundred in anything but a 20+ mph winds, you have a broke rifle....period, even worse than a bad barrel.
Hovis
Boyd Allen
Active member
I probably should have mentioned that back in the day, I pruned some off of my barrels to balance my rifle so that there was more weight on the rear, for shooting free. It helped. Previously, I had added weight in the back, that took me over 10.5# to see if it would, before I had the barrels shortened. Shorter actions have an advantage in this (Mine is a Viper), because they put the weight of the barrel farther back, and you may notice that the newer wood and carbon fiber stocks have relatively long forearms which transfer more of a rifle's weight to the rear bag, assuming that the front bag is placed to take advantage of this feature. With a good barrel, my rifle will shoot the same sized groups held or free, but I like to be able to shoot free so that I can shoot with my head up, to better time shots, when there is a fast alternating switch near a head or tail wind. If a rifle is right, I should be able to tune it for at least low 2's, on a day when the wind is mild, loading at the range, in less than an hour. If I cannot do that, there is a problem with the rifle, or scope.
If you don't believe balance is important, shoot a Borden. You can stand back and throw stuff at the Borden gun until it fires and the bullets will find the hole.
I'm, so much with Kevin, a bad gun, a poorly balanced gun is completely useless. If a gun needs "work" to shoot, the gun's broke.
A good gun will make a complete newbie look like a pro.
How do I know this?
I bought good guns.
Al
I'm, so much with Kevin, a bad gun, a poorly balanced gun is completely useless. If a gun needs "work" to shoot, the gun's broke.
A good gun will make a complete newbie look like a pro.
How do I know this?
I bought good guns.
Al
R
rodauto
Guest
I had never thought about balance as an issue, how do I tell if my rifle is balanced?
Specs. on the rifle are:
- 41.5 inches OAL
- 20.75 inches barrel length
- 9 inches action length from front of action to rear of tang
- barrel diameter is 1.15 inches at the point it enters the action and .935 at the muzzle. Barrel is fluted.
- complete rifle as shown in the picture weighs about 10.5 pounds
The forestock is flat bottom about 3 inches wide , not sure of composition but I think it is likely fiberglass?
Rodney
Specs. on the rifle are:
- 41.5 inches OAL
- 20.75 inches barrel length
- 9 inches action length from front of action to rear of tang
- barrel diameter is 1.15 inches at the point it enters the action and .935 at the muzzle. Barrel is fluted.
- complete rifle as shown in the picture weighs about 10.5 pounds
The forestock is flat bottom about 3 inches wide , not sure of composition but I think it is likely fiberglass?
Rodney