Boyd Allen
Active member
Lynn,
Friend...it is no big thing, but as a sort of crutch/checker for the proper use of alluded, you might try substituting "referred" into the same position in the sentence and then consider how it sounds. For example, if you did my suggested substitution the last part would read "...the questions you keep referring." Now I know that you would not say or write that. You would say "...referring to." IMHO, your sentence should have read "...the questions you keep alluding to." I know that my use of the language is not prefect, but I think that I am correct on this one small point.
As far as reamer drawings go, having worked backwards from sized brass from a FL die, and sending a dummy round to the reamer mfg. determine freebore length is my preferred method, if there is any problem in establishing that there is an authoritative source for freebore length a particular cartridge and bullet. I have done about a half dozen of these reamer projects with and for friends. They have all been tight neck chambers, because the FL dies were of standard one piece design, and the IDs of the neck of the die dictated it. When doing this, I prefer to use an old work hardened piece of brass to get the largest sized case that I am likely to encounter. Boy, talk about straight sized brass and ammunition! In any case, the one thing that I would do differently, today, is to set up my chamber for a little more neck clearance, for a cleaner bullet release. I have talked to some very accomplished short range Benchrest shooters that are well above .002 total loaded round clearance, close to and at .003. I also seem to remember reading of one successful .30 cal. 1K shooter writing that he got his best results using .005. I know that this is not the conventional wisdom, and I am only reporting what I read. On the other hand, I know shooters that use less than
Now to the running the reamer in longer thing, there is a reason that Dasher' necks are shorter. The cases are only so long, and if the shoulder is moved forward, the the neck has to be shortened by approximately the same amount. When your run a standard BR reamer in deeper the length from bolt face to the end of the neck portion of the chamber is increased by a like amount, and since the brass is not made longer, there is a gap at the end of the brass that is chamber neck diameter and the length that the reamer was run in longer, plus any case growth allowance that was built into the reamer. This length must be added to the length of the freebore on the reamer to get the total measurement from the end of a chambered case's neck to the start of the leade angle. I am sure that you know this, and that your post to the contrary was merely a "heat of battle" thing. BTW, I may be mistaken but I believe that this may be Robert's web site. http://www.6mmar.com/ From looking around on it at the various wildcats and the results that have been obtained with them, I would say that he has more than a passing experience with reamers, not to say that you don't. I don't mean that at all.
Boyd
Friend...it is no big thing, but as a sort of crutch/checker for the proper use of alluded, you might try substituting "referred" into the same position in the sentence and then consider how it sounds. For example, if you did my suggested substitution the last part would read "...the questions you keep referring." Now I know that you would not say or write that. You would say "...referring to." IMHO, your sentence should have read "...the questions you keep alluding to." I know that my use of the language is not prefect, but I think that I am correct on this one small point.
As far as reamer drawings go, having worked backwards from sized brass from a FL die, and sending a dummy round to the reamer mfg. determine freebore length is my preferred method, if there is any problem in establishing that there is an authoritative source for freebore length a particular cartridge and bullet. I have done about a half dozen of these reamer projects with and for friends. They have all been tight neck chambers, because the FL dies were of standard one piece design, and the IDs of the neck of the die dictated it. When doing this, I prefer to use an old work hardened piece of brass to get the largest sized case that I am likely to encounter. Boy, talk about straight sized brass and ammunition! In any case, the one thing that I would do differently, today, is to set up my chamber for a little more neck clearance, for a cleaner bullet release. I have talked to some very accomplished short range Benchrest shooters that are well above .002 total loaded round clearance, close to and at .003. I also seem to remember reading of one successful .30 cal. 1K shooter writing that he got his best results using .005. I know that this is not the conventional wisdom, and I am only reporting what I read. On the other hand, I know shooters that use less than
Now to the running the reamer in longer thing, there is a reason that Dasher' necks are shorter. The cases are only so long, and if the shoulder is moved forward, the the neck has to be shortened by approximately the same amount. When your run a standard BR reamer in deeper the length from bolt face to the end of the neck portion of the chamber is increased by a like amount, and since the brass is not made longer, there is a gap at the end of the brass that is chamber neck diameter and the length that the reamer was run in longer, plus any case growth allowance that was built into the reamer. This length must be added to the length of the freebore on the reamer to get the total measurement from the end of a chambered case's neck to the start of the leade angle. I am sure that you know this, and that your post to the contrary was merely a "heat of battle" thing. BTW, I may be mistaken but I believe that this may be Robert's web site. http://www.6mmar.com/ From looking around on it at the various wildcats and the results that have been obtained with them, I would say that he has more than a passing experience with reamers, not to say that you don't. I don't mean that at all.
Boyd
Boyd
When I see people post about someones grammar when they fully understood the context of the post I get the feeling they have already lost any credibility they may have had and or looking for any morsal to sustain there existance.
In the case of the 6BRX and the fact that it is over 10 yerars old does it suprise anyone here that if they were to call a reamer manufacturer they could get a reamer and print of what is now the norm?
Are you telling me 0.015 worth of freebore is a deal breaker in a 1,000 yard round?
Are you telling me the original 6BRX was 0.110 longer or could it have been 0.105 or 0.115 and just standardised at 0.110 on the prints.
If you can go on someones website and determine he is very knowledgeable about reamers based on what you have read here I am losing hope for this website and especially the Supermoderators who are supposed to have a little on the ball in these matters.
If you run a 6 BR reamer in 0.080 deep or 0.120 deep and use URBR brass does the neck length have to shrink?
If you use 243 Lapua brass does the neck length have to be shorter?
If you use 308 Lapua brass does the neck length have to be shorter?
Is it possible to run a 6Dasher reamer into a 6BR barrel and get a instant 6Dasher and if you answer yes what happens to the freebore? Will it shoot?
Ask yourself this question.If you shoot your rifle for 100 rounds with a long neck case then trim your brass 0.020 shorter will it still shoot? What will this trimming process do to the chamber ring or carbon build up in front of the old case? Before you answer that one talk to an old salt of the 6ppc cartridge.
Because I like you I am going to word this in Robert Whitley fashion so it sounds positive and upbeat but in my case it will actually be factual as well.
Here goes.
Hi there UpandComing my name is Lynn Dragoman and I am a active NBRSA 600 and 1,000 yard competitor for the past 10 years now.I have had two 6BRX reamers one old and one only 3 years old.I have worked with several of the worlds best reamer manufacturers including Kiff,Clymer,JGS and Hennriksen.I have talked with the head engineer at Sierra bullets and have e-mailed Eric Stecker at Berger bullets.I have had custom dies made by The Harrel brothers JLC,Alan Warner and a host of others too numerous to list.I suggest you turn necks or use a 0.274 neck so you don't end up with tight clearances like Boyd pointed out many of the top dogs use.I personaly like/use 0.268 necks myself as do many of the best shooters who actually compete.I also use a 0.104 freebore and have had no bad side affects from chosing this length in actual benchrest competition.
How was that? Did I do enough kissing?
Boyd I would like your response to this question.
Do you honestly believe anyone calling Dave Kiff and asking for a 6BRX reamer would get anything but what everybody else is using and using for the past several years? If the freebore was 0.015 shorter would it make any difference? If it was 0.015 longer would it?
Just how much empirical evidence do you think Robert has with a reamer that is 2 months old? Does Robert chamber his own barrels.
Now for the grand finale question which is rhetorical.Ask yourself this.If Robert would have said this----Hi my name is Robert Whitley I don't shoot benchrest but by contacting several people who actually do and a couple reamer guys I think I have a reamer that is a good compromise of everybodies input.I have only had it for 2 months now and as I don't do any chambering myself I have very limited results so far but things are looking good.Would that answer have had the same affect?
Waterboy
When I see people post about someones grammar when they fully understood the context of the post I get the feeling they have already lost any credibility they may have had and or looking for any morsal to sustain there existance.
In the case of the 6BRX and the fact that it is over 10 yerars old does it suprise anyone here that if they were to call a reamer manufacturer they could get a reamer and print of what is now the norm?
Are you telling me 0.015 worth of freebore is a deal breaker in a 1,000 yard round?
Are you telling me the original 6BRX was 0.110 longer or could it have been 0.105 or 0.115 and just standardised at 0.110 on the prints.
If you can go on someones website and determine he is very knowledgeable about reamers based on what you have read here I am losing hope for this website and especially the Supermoderators who are supposed to have a little on the ball in these matters.
If you run a 6 BR reamer in 0.080 deep or 0.120 deep and use URBR brass does the neck length have to shrink?
If you use 243 Lapua brass does the neck length have to be shorter?
If you use 308 Lapua brass does the neck length have to be shorter?
Is it possible to run a 6Dasher reamer into a 6BR barrel and get a instant 6Dasher and if you answer yes what happens to the freebore? Will it shoot?
Ask yourself this question.If you shoot your rifle for 100 rounds with a long neck case then trim your brass 0.020 shorter will it still shoot? What will this trimming process do to the chamber ring or carbon build up in front of the old case? Before you answer that one talk to an old salt of the 6ppc cartridge.
Because I like you I am going to word this in Robert Whitley fashion so it sounds positive and upbeat but in my case it will actually be factual as well.
Here goes.
Hi there UpandComing my name is Lynn Dragoman and I am a active NBRSA 600 and 1,000 yard competitor for the past 10 years now.I have had two 6BRX reamers one old and one only 3 years old.I have worked with several of the worlds best reamer manufacturers including Kiff,Clymer,JGS and Hennriksen.I have talked with the head engineer at Sierra bullets and have e-mailed Eric Stecker at Berger bullets.I have had custom dies made by The Harrel brothers JLC,Alan Warner and a host of others too numerous to list.I suggest you turn necks or use a 0.274 neck so you don't end up with tight clearances like Boyd pointed out many of the top dogs use.I personaly like/use 0.268 necks myself as do many of the best shooters who actually compete.I also use a 0.104 freebore and have had no bad side affects from chosing this length in actual benchrest competition.
How was that? Did I do enough kissing?
Boyd I would like your response to this question.
Do you honestly believe anyone calling Dave Kiff and asking for a 6BRX reamer would get anything but what everybody else is using and using for the past several years? If the freebore was 0.015 shorter would it make any difference? If it was 0.015 longer would it?
Just how much empirical evidence do you think Robert has with a reamer that is 2 months old? Does Robert chamber his own barrels.
Now for the grand finale question which is rhetorical.Ask yourself this.If Robert would have said this----Hi my name is Robert Whitley I don't shoot benchrest but by contacting several people who actually do and a couple reamer guys I think I have a reamer that is a good compromise of everybodies input.I have only had it for 2 months now and as I don't do any chambering myself I have very limited results so far but things are looking good.Would that answer have had the same affect?
Waterboy
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rcw3
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Boyd
You are correct that I have more than a passing experience with reamers (especially when it comes to the design and testing of wildcats) and between Pacific Tool, JGS and Henricksen I probably have the better part of 75 reamers, enough I have lost count.
I am also lucky to be a staff columnist for Precision Shooting magazine and have had many articles published over the years. In the course of doing magazine projects and articles, I have been fortunate to have worked with many of the "best of the best" bench rest and other competitors (including their gunsmiths, their barrel makers, their reamer makers, their stock makers, their bullet makers, their brass makers, the makers of their powders and primers, etc.). The lead article in the September issue is slated to be one written by me featuring the Pacific Tool 308 Palma reamer, Berger Bullets recent 80.5 gr 22 Cal. FULLBORE bullets, Hornady's recently released 6.5 Grendel brass (vs the Lapua 6.5 Grendel brass), and John Hoover's bullet tipping die. I have worked with John Hoover quite a bit lately and I am happy he just won the Willimasport 1000 yard world open bench rest championships. I have one principle, I do not write about something I do not actually test and try out myself.
I also own AR-X Enterprises, LLC and do build ups for competition rifles, and our customer list is like a who's who of the top competitors in many fields (i.e. guys like Bill Shehane, Rod Wagner, Jerry Tierney, etc.). Jerry just set another national record with one of the 6mm wildcat rifle uppers we built for him (he's currently featured on the Berger Bullets website holding it in front of his record target). He's been burning up the national records with two different uppers I built him (I think it's 14+ national records now). I do all the accuracy and function testing for every rifle and upper, and I have spent more time at the bench doing, load, accuracy, chrono and function testing than probably anyone I know - it's part of my job!
The BRX and the Dasher have been two of the 6mm wildcats I have been working with for some time now, and I will be producing articles on them too. I have multiple barrels chambered in both cartridges and I have been testing them out (off the bench, and in prone testing, and in matches). The BRX drawing I posted earlier is the most recent drawing I have, and it's essentially an exact copy of a JGS reamer I have had for some time. I always try to be very thorough with my work and it's not unusual for me to have three or more reamers and multiple barrels chambered up in the course of a project, and the BRX project is no exception.
The BRX has an interesting history as a cartridge and its design has morphed over time. For example Rodney's drawing is an earlier developmental reamer design that becomes a BRX when it is short chambered, but as a drawing it is not an "as built" for a BRX chamber. Other earlier reamer design choices were apparently made based on different brass than the current Lapua brass which has become the standard brass used for the BRX. Example, the base diameter on some reamers is very small as some were apparently working with the old Remington brass to make BRX brass, but the current Lapua brass is bigger in the web and the small base dimension will lead to a harder bolt lift and constant "clicking" when one tries to open the bolt.
In my work with JGS and Pacific Tool (mostly with Dave at Pacific Tool) what I wanted to see was a reamer design that represented the current "standard in the industry" for a BRX chamber using currently available Lapua brass. The drawing posted has a body design that represents that. The .272" neck is the most common "no neck turn" set up and a .268" neck seems to be about the most common "neck turn" set up. For free bore length people can do whatever they please, but the .120" works very well with many of the 105-108 gr. bullets (and the 1.560" case length). I would agree with Rodney, if you are going to run something like Randy Robinette's 108's, you will need a very long free bore as they have the longest bearing surface of just about any 6mm bullet, but then be aware that if you throat for them, other 105's (like JLK 105 VLD's) will almost be falling out of the mouth of the case when they hit the lands. It's a matter of finding a good compromise throat length and working with it with multiple bullets, or setting up a throat for particular bullets.
Robert Whitley
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rcw3
Guest
Boyd
On the grammar issue, I admit, it's not a big deal, but when someone should use the word "eluding" and erroneously uses the word "alluding" (and grammatically improper as well), then argues about it - it's just too silly to ignore.
Robert Whitley
On the grammar issue, I admit, it's not a big deal, but when someone should use the word "eluding" and erroneously uses the word "alluding" (and grammatically improper as well), then argues about it - it's just too silly to ignore.
Robert Whitley
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Boyd Allen
Active member
Lynn,
Obviously, if you run a reamer in longer, and make cases from brass that is long enough to cover that length there will be no resultant gap at the end of the neck. Also, as long as you get a usable situation for how far the bullet is into the case neck and where you want to be in relation to the rifling, any number of freebore specifications will work just fine. As to your experience, it is laudable and uncontested. About how to order a reamer, I tend to listen to everyone, ask for drawings, and give the heaviest weight to what my FL dies produce, in the way of sized case dimensions, using old hardened brass, and the fit that I would like. As far as the rest of it goes, the reason that I bothered to post at all is that I thought that this thread had become unnecessarily acrimonious in tone, and since Robert had not presented his credentials, point out that he has some of his own in regard to reamer design. As regards chambering one's own barrels, I aspire to that, but have not yet been able to get there yet, nevertheless I think that it can be truthfully said that one may be knowledgeable about reamer dimensions without having chambered a barrel. As to the grammar correction, it is probably true that if my perception of your general tone in this thread had been less combative, I would have PMed it. If you think that being more respectful in one's manner of disagreement is "kissy" and from that I would infer, weak, I disagree. As to your career in shooting, I wish you continued success, and as you learn more, keep us informed. Real experiences, accurately reported, are of great value, and that is your strong point.
Boyd
Obviously, if you run a reamer in longer, and make cases from brass that is long enough to cover that length there will be no resultant gap at the end of the neck. Also, as long as you get a usable situation for how far the bullet is into the case neck and where you want to be in relation to the rifling, any number of freebore specifications will work just fine. As to your experience, it is laudable and uncontested. About how to order a reamer, I tend to listen to everyone, ask for drawings, and give the heaviest weight to what my FL dies produce, in the way of sized case dimensions, using old hardened brass, and the fit that I would like. As far as the rest of it goes, the reason that I bothered to post at all is that I thought that this thread had become unnecessarily acrimonious in tone, and since Robert had not presented his credentials, point out that he has some of his own in regard to reamer design. As regards chambering one's own barrels, I aspire to that, but have not yet been able to get there yet, nevertheless I think that it can be truthfully said that one may be knowledgeable about reamer dimensions without having chambered a barrel. As to the grammar correction, it is probably true that if my perception of your general tone in this thread had been less combative, I would have PMed it. If you think that being more respectful in one's manner of disagreement is "kissy" and from that I would infer, weak, I disagree. As to your career in shooting, I wish you continued success, and as you learn more, keep us informed. Real experiences, accurately reported, are of great value, and that is your strong point.
Boyd
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rcw3
Guest
Boyd
Your diplomacy is excellent, better than mine!
The reality is, it's all about accuracy, and more particularly consistent accuracy.
There are bench rest and other shooters who know a great deal about chambers and reamer designs and there are those do not, but that does not necessarily dictate whether they do well in their matches or not, or that they are competent or not to design or make a reamer. The fact that you do or do not shoot bench rest or other competitions does not necessarily mean you do or do not know key issues on reamer design.
No one would argue that Dave Kiff does not know about making bench rest chamber reamers, but in reality, he's a reamer maker and does not test or shoot much of what he makes. In fact, he bemoans the fact that he's so busy at work he almost never gets time to shoot anymore. Does the fact he does not actively shoot bench rest mean he is not suited to make reamers for bench rest shooters? I think not - clearly he is.
If Lynn's point is that I am incompetent to determine and comment on what an appropriate reamer is - then I consider that a thread that is going negative and personal and I won't engage him on that because that's just a "grudge match". If he wants to debate why the dimensions or design of what I posted is or is not suitable for bench rest, then I am game for that.
Frankly I would still love to see his "best" BRX reamer design posted or hear and see honest debate on the BRX chambering.
Robert Whitley
Your diplomacy is excellent, better than mine!
The reality is, it's all about accuracy, and more particularly consistent accuracy.
There are bench rest and other shooters who know a great deal about chambers and reamer designs and there are those do not, but that does not necessarily dictate whether they do well in their matches or not, or that they are competent or not to design or make a reamer. The fact that you do or do not shoot bench rest or other competitions does not necessarily mean you do or do not know key issues on reamer design.
No one would argue that Dave Kiff does not know about making bench rest chamber reamers, but in reality, he's a reamer maker and does not test or shoot much of what he makes. In fact, he bemoans the fact that he's so busy at work he almost never gets time to shoot anymore. Does the fact he does not actively shoot bench rest mean he is not suited to make reamers for bench rest shooters? I think not - clearly he is.
If Lynn's point is that I am incompetent to determine and comment on what an appropriate reamer is - then I consider that a thread that is going negative and personal and I won't engage him on that because that's just a "grudge match". If he wants to debate why the dimensions or design of what I posted is or is not suitable for bench rest, then I am game for that.
Frankly I would still love to see his "best" BRX reamer design posted or hear and see honest debate on the BRX chambering.
Robert Whitley
G
Greg Culpepper
Guest
The best reamer design is whatever cuts a chamber that produces fired brass that is sized to perfection by the standard, off the shelf, mass produced, affordable or even cheap non-custom die you decide to use. Pick good brass first, then decide what chamber you want or vice versa, then get your size die and spec your reamer from it. If you want a tight neck you can spec the reamer to size for the clearance and neck tension you want. For a no turn neck you can use a full length bushing die or have the die manufacturer to ream your standard die out to suit ($10 to $20) Keep in mind you can always lengthen the throat with a hand reamer to optimize for a longer bullet but you can't shorten it without cutting a new chamber. I prefer a roomy chamber base to postpone or eliminate bolt click (alinwa but not so much) and a sharp shoulder to neck junction radius to limit stretch (as per Beggs).
The chamber makes the brass. Make the reamer to make the chamber to make the brass to work with a production die. You can buy a barrel for what a resize reamer and custom resize die cost compared to a standard die.
The chamber makes the brass. Make the reamer to make the chamber to make the brass to work with a production die. You can buy a barrel for what a resize reamer and custom resize die cost compared to a standard die.
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rcw3
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Boyd
Just a follow up on the "credentials" item:
I also actively compete with the wildcats and rifles I put together. The results of the last match I shot are attached. My 14 yr old son also shot F-Class that day with one of my rifles and wildcat cartridges (the 6mm Super LR), and although he was not eligible to win, you can also see how he did.
I have also been retained by attorneys in firearms cases as an expert witness and have been qualified and accepted by courts as a recognized expert witness on firearms issues.
My writings have also been accepted by others as authoritative, including writings with my chamber and reamer designs. For example if you look up the 6.5-284 on Wikipedia, my article on "Why the 6.5 x 284 For Long Range Shooting?" is cited as one of the authoritative sources on that cartridge (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6.5-284 )
In truth, the whole issue that I must somehow prove I am qualified to post my reamer drawing on this forum, and to discuss it, seems off base.
Be that as it may, I think my credentials speak for themselves and if Lynn still feels he wants to dispute them or argue about them, then that's just "sour grapes".
Frankly I would still love to see Lynn's "best" BRX reamer.
Robert Whitley
Just a follow up on the "credentials" item:
I also actively compete with the wildcats and rifles I put together. The results of the last match I shot are attached. My 14 yr old son also shot F-Class that day with one of my rifles and wildcat cartridges (the 6mm Super LR), and although he was not eligible to win, you can also see how he did.
I have also been retained by attorneys in firearms cases as an expert witness and have been qualified and accepted by courts as a recognized expert witness on firearms issues.
My writings have also been accepted by others as authoritative, including writings with my chamber and reamer designs. For example if you look up the 6.5-284 on Wikipedia, my article on "Why the 6.5 x 284 For Long Range Shooting?" is cited as one of the authoritative sources on that cartridge (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6.5-284 )
In truth, the whole issue that I must somehow prove I am qualified to post my reamer drawing on this forum, and to discuss it, seems off base.
Be that as it may, I think my credentials speak for themselves and if Lynn still feels he wants to dispute them or argue about them, then that's just "sour grapes".
Frankly I would still love to see Lynn's "best" BRX reamer.
Robert Whitley
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Boyd
I shoot with Jerry Tierney every month and last time I talked with him he reset 22 national highpower records but he never told me how many were set using a 6BRX but I will find that out and post it.
If you read through Roberts post before he edits it out you will see reference to the brass used now that I mentioned it in my earlier post.
Writing articles doesn't make you an authority in my opinion unless you are responsible for the cartridges development and Robert Whitley is in no way responsible for anything to do with the 6BRX.He can read posts here and on 6mmbr.com and get all of the information required to write one of his articles.
In my opinion that makes him a story teller/writer not an authority as the information obtained wasn't his.
You can give me a call at 707-921-9474 and I can explain to you everything you need to know.
Lynn aka Waterboy
I shoot with Jerry Tierney every month and last time I talked with him he reset 22 national highpower records but he never told me how many were set using a 6BRX but I will find that out and post it.
If you read through Roberts post before he edits it out you will see reference to the brass used now that I mentioned it in my earlier post.
Writing articles doesn't make you an authority in my opinion unless you are responsible for the cartridges development and Robert Whitley is in no way responsible for anything to do with the 6BRX.He can read posts here and on 6mmbr.com and get all of the information required to write one of his articles.
In my opinion that makes him a story teller/writer not an authority as the information obtained wasn't his.
You can give me a call at 707-921-9474 and I can explain to you everything you need to know.
Lynn aka Waterboy
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rcw3
Guest
Lynn
I am not sure what your point is on editing posts because you do a lot of editing of your own posts (including the one above). It seems it's o.k. for you to edit your posts, but it's somehow wrong or bad if I edit my posts.
You went negative and personal way back, and you are still there!
Why not post your BRX reamer drawing?
Why not discuss the BRX cartridge (instead of me)?
Now after all your postings, people have to call you and you "can explain" "everything" they "need to know". Phooey!
Oh well - I will continue my work with the BRX cartridge, working on rifle build ups, and reporting what I see and find, and you don't have to read my articles, or my postings for that matter.
Robert Whitley
I am not sure what your point is on editing posts because you do a lot of editing of your own posts (including the one above). It seems it's o.k. for you to edit your posts, but it's somehow wrong or bad if I edit my posts.
You went negative and personal way back, and you are still there!
Why not post your BRX reamer drawing?
Why not discuss the BRX cartridge (instead of me)?
Now after all your postings, people have to call you and you "can explain" "everything" they "need to know". Phooey!
Oh well - I will continue my work with the BRX cartridge, working on rifle build ups, and reporting what I see and find, and you don't have to read my articles, or my postings for that matter.
Robert Whitley
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rcw3
Robert Whitley I don' read anybodies articles who isn't actually a shooter in the discipline I am interested in.That isn't a slight on you rather I don't want to read hearsay or second hand information.
If I want to read about the 6.5 X 284 for highpower type shooting Iwould read stuff by John Hoover.If I wanted to read about benchrest at 1,000 yards I would follow Bill Shehanes advice.
I shoot with Jerry Tierney about every month and he shoots benchrest as well or better than the next guy but he isn't a talker about his equipment or reloading practices.Some days he talks some days he shoots and he is always testing new equipment so we try not to bother him.
As to editing posts I do it to fix spelling errors and drop outs.My keyboard is wireless and for some reason certain letters never seem to show up.I also have big fingers that hit several keys at a time.
I rarely edit a post because I mis-spoke as I would rather correct the mistake and point out my error as it is easier for myself to do.In your case you edit when you get caught.
As to your repeated request that I post my two reamer prints I simply have no way of doing it.One of the prints is very old and has been folded so many times as to make it very hard to read.The other has been whited over in 3 spots so I could have another one built but I went with
the dasher and no longer want to use the 6BRX.I do have a scanner but don't have it hooked up.
My problem with your postings is your claim to making the 6BRX standard of the industry design and your claim to knowing all things 6BRX aas used in 600/1,000 yard benchrest competition.Had you posted your claims on the F-Class forum I would never had read them and would not have called you on your false claims.It was simply you posting your junk on the wrong forum.
As to your specs for a reamer use whatever blows your skirt up.I like the post by Greg Culpepper myself as it covers all the bases in my opinion.I also prefer longer necks on my 6BRX and Dasher cases and Dave Kiff is goiing to build myself a reamer next week with a longer neck.I may have to use 308 palma or 6.5 x 47 brass but if your making a wildcat who cares.
As to having someone call me I am sure with you being a lawyer and all you don't want me posting your old posts on here from Williamsport or why you and your son are promoting certain cartridges.I figured you were simply to cheap to pay Wilbur for advertising?
I like the fact you take your son shooting (that is a positive) but you won't understand my next questions.
Why have we gone 4 pages and you still haven't answered any of MY questions?
And
What size agg's are your 6BRX'S shooting?
Waterboy
P.S. Boyd call me at night not during the day as I am working on a project that keeps me away from my cell phone.
Robert Whitley I don' read anybodies articles who isn't actually a shooter in the discipline I am interested in.That isn't a slight on you rather I don't want to read hearsay or second hand information.
If I want to read about the 6.5 X 284 for highpower type shooting Iwould read stuff by John Hoover.If I wanted to read about benchrest at 1,000 yards I would follow Bill Shehanes advice.
I shoot with Jerry Tierney about every month and he shoots benchrest as well or better than the next guy but he isn't a talker about his equipment or reloading practices.Some days he talks some days he shoots and he is always testing new equipment so we try not to bother him.
As to editing posts I do it to fix spelling errors and drop outs.My keyboard is wireless and for some reason certain letters never seem to show up.I also have big fingers that hit several keys at a time.
I rarely edit a post because I mis-spoke as I would rather correct the mistake and point out my error as it is easier for myself to do.In your case you edit when you get caught.
As to your repeated request that I post my two reamer prints I simply have no way of doing it.One of the prints is very old and has been folded so many times as to make it very hard to read.The other has been whited over in 3 spots so I could have another one built but I went with
the dasher and no longer want to use the 6BRX.I do have a scanner but don't have it hooked up.
My problem with your postings is your claim to making the 6BRX standard of the industry design and your claim to knowing all things 6BRX aas used in 600/1,000 yard benchrest competition.Had you posted your claims on the F-Class forum I would never had read them and would not have called you on your false claims.It was simply you posting your junk on the wrong forum.
As to your specs for a reamer use whatever blows your skirt up.I like the post by Greg Culpepper myself as it covers all the bases in my opinion.I also prefer longer necks on my 6BRX and Dasher cases and Dave Kiff is goiing to build myself a reamer next week with a longer neck.I may have to use 308 palma or 6.5 x 47 brass but if your making a wildcat who cares.
As to having someone call me I am sure with you being a lawyer and all you don't want me posting your old posts on here from Williamsport or why you and your son are promoting certain cartridges.I figured you were simply to cheap to pay Wilbur for advertising?
I like the fact you take your son shooting (that is a positive) but you won't understand my next questions.
Why have we gone 4 pages and you still haven't answered any of MY questions?
And
What size agg's are your 6BRX'S shooting?
Waterboy
P.S. Boyd call me at night not during the day as I am working on a project that keeps me away from my cell phone.
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L
limbic
Guest
I hate to interrupt two girls arguing but I've got a question?
With a .271 neck - if you don't have enough clearance the will the fired brass be difficult to extract? If not what are the signs of "not enough clearance"? My BRX has the aforementioned neck diameter and I've not run into any troubles with the Lapua brass. Atleast none that I'm aware of. I'm about to order another reamer and initially began following this thread with great interest thinking that some of my questions were going to be answered and they were. Thanks.
With a .271 neck - if you don't have enough clearance the will the fired brass be difficult to extract? If not what are the signs of "not enough clearance"? My BRX has the aforementioned neck diameter and I've not run into any troubles with the Lapua brass. Atleast none that I'm aware of. I'm about to order another reamer and initially began following this thread with great interest thinking that some of my questions were going to be answered and they were. Thanks.
I'm not one of the GIQ but I've got an opinion.
The only reason that I can see that the NECK could lead to difficult extraction is if it's too long and is crimping on the bullet. This can lead to a wicked pressure spike which can swell the BASE until it causes tight extraction, generally wrecking the case in the process. I've run necks as tight as scuff-fit and shown no pressure increase as far as I can tell.
This flies right smack in the face of conventional wisdom, in fact were you to post this anywhere else in the world folks would be leaping and gnashing and crying DANGER!! DANGER!! thinking you'll blow yer face off.. All's I can say is, test it for yourself.
It is my opinion that 90% of all pressure spikes in the reloading world come from using a powder thrower instead of an accurate scale for reloading.
opinionsby
al
Well I'm the second girl you were referring to but if you use the newer blue box Lapua 6BR brass a 0.268 neck will also be a no neck turn neck.I have a 1000 new cases sitting here and wanted to suprise The Expiper with how thin they are but thought I would answer your question.
In the past the guys shooting the 0.272 no-turn necks were routinely running less clearance than the guys turning there necks but because they never bothered to check they never found out.It is possible to get loaded rounds at 0.2715 with boattail bullets so if you decide to use flatbase bullets with the pressure ring look for scuff marks on the neck.
With the newest blue box brass your clearance will exceed 0.005 inches if it measures like mine.''
If you take 3 pieces of brass and set it up for 0.003 clearance and you take 3 pieces of brass and set it up as fitted necks and shoot it round robin style you will get two groups on your target with each group containg all 3 like pieces of brass.This is exactly why you shouldn't mix your brass lot #'s up and why neck turning is such a plus.Please run this test on your own so you can see for yourself if I am right or wrong or you get different results.
Lynn aka Waterboy aka The Second Little Girl
In the past the guys shooting the 0.272 no-turn necks were routinely running less clearance than the guys turning there necks but because they never bothered to check they never found out.It is possible to get loaded rounds at 0.2715 with boattail bullets so if you decide to use flatbase bullets with the pressure ring look for scuff marks on the neck.
With the newest blue box brass your clearance will exceed 0.005 inches if it measures like mine.''
If you take 3 pieces of brass and set it up for 0.003 clearance and you take 3 pieces of brass and set it up as fitted necks and shoot it round robin style you will get two groups on your target with each group containg all 3 like pieces of brass.This is exactly why you shouldn't mix your brass lot #'s up and why neck turning is such a plus.Please run this test on your own so you can see for yourself if I am right or wrong or you get different results.
Lynn aka Waterboy aka The Second Little Girl
My *opinion* is that Al is correct. There was a noted Texas short-range shooter named T,J, Jackson (one of the guys who shot in the Houston Warehouse) who took great pains preparing his brass. One of his steps was to firefom a case where the neck was so tight in the chamber he had to fire the round to extract it. Only then would he do his final neck turning.
Think about it -- that bullet is going to have to come out. As the pressure fills the chamber, both the chamber and the brass will expand, then rebound. In this particular case (neck diameter), apparently the elasticity of each is such that the brass rebounds a bit more, so if you can get it in, it will come out. Just don't assume this applies to all aspects of the fit of the case in the chamber.
Also, don't *assume* it helps accuracy. The shape of the pressure, curve, and its consistency, is at least as important as any mechanical fitting.
Opinions by Charles
Think about it -- that bullet is going to have to come out. As the pressure fills the chamber, both the chamber and the brass will expand, then rebound. In this particular case (neck diameter), apparently the elasticity of each is such that the brass rebounds a bit more, so if you can get it in, it will come out. Just don't assume this applies to all aspects of the fit of the case in the chamber.
Also, don't *assume* it helps accuracy. The shape of the pressure, curve, and its consistency, is at least as important as any mechanical fitting.
Opinions by Charles
L
limbic
Guest
So with my .271 neck I should find three similar pieces of brass (fired or unfired?) and trim .0003 off them. Then take three other pieces and load them as usual, no neck turn style. Shoot the six (alternating ofcourse) see if I get two separate groups?
You guys do have a good sense of humor to go with the wealth of knowledge.
As far as I'm concerned, no.There are a lot of assumptons buried in here.
Suppose you use bushing dies -- no expander mandrel. Suppose you use a bushing .002 smaller than the measurement of one of your "standard" loaded rounds. Now suppose, without changing the die, you take .003 off he case neck. For one thing, whatever neck tension you had before is gone. All of it.
On the other hand, suppose, as I have been known to do, you size a case down, say, .004 under measure loaded round diameter, and use an expander mandrel to take the cases back .002 less than a loaded round. I still have some neck tension. There will be bit of variance, but not much.
The reason I know somethig about htis has to do more with the number of firings on a case. Fring the brass hardens it. The degree of hardness in the brass changes the springback after sizing. If you size a soft piece and a hard piece with the same bushing, you wind up with different neck tension, even if the neck wall is the same.
How much does all this stuff matter? I dunno. There is a point where enough differences in size & tension will bite you. There is a point where small differences won't appear on paper with any barrel I've ever used. And some barrels seem more forgiving.
The reason I know so much about the case hardness by the way, is because we went from shooting one match per weekend to two.
One match meant 5 record and seven sighters for your LG. But, you might get into the shootoff. Better have another 5 & 7. With HG, that's 10 plus 5, times 2 if you win. Two matches in one day? I didn't have enough cases. No problem, resurrect some of the old ones. Ooops, they act a bit different. No problem, take them down then expand them up just a bit. Now everything is close enough.
YMMV
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Limbic
I don't know anything about what Charles E has posted to you.
When I was talking about no-turn necks and clearance I was talking about the neck diameter not its length.
In my example I was talking about fitted necks were you have to slightly palm the bolt to get it to close and necks with 0.003 clearance that chamber like butter.
It is a simple test for everyone here to try out on there own then reoport back there findings.On the westcoast you get two very distinct groups but I don't shoot east of the Mississippi were the rules are different there.
I also don't recommend you to follow the advise given above about making your brass so tight that you can't open the bolt until the case is fired.I would not want anyone piercing primers or hitting new unfired brass with that much pressure.I used to shoot a 6BR with 31.5 grains of Varget in twice fired brass.If I used that load in new brass I would get on average 4-5 cases per hundred that would wreck the primer pocket so I backed my first load down to 28.0 grains and my second load is 30.7 grains.
On the occasion I had a tight case neck it never failed to show more pressure than my normal rounds that had plenty of clearance.
Maybe T.J. Jackson was shooting lighter loads?
Waterboy aka Lynn
I don't know anything about what Charles E has posted to you.
When I was talking about no-turn necks and clearance I was talking about the neck diameter not its length.
In my example I was talking about fitted necks were you have to slightly palm the bolt to get it to close and necks with 0.003 clearance that chamber like butter.
It is a simple test for everyone here to try out on there own then reoport back there findings.On the westcoast you get two very distinct groups but I don't shoot east of the Mississippi were the rules are different there.
I also don't recommend you to follow the advise given above about making your brass so tight that you can't open the bolt until the case is fired.I would not want anyone piercing primers or hitting new unfired brass with that much pressure.I used to shoot a 6BR with 31.5 grains of Varget in twice fired brass.If I used that load in new brass I would get on average 4-5 cases per hundred that would wreck the primer pocket so I backed my first load down to 28.0 grains and my second load is 30.7 grains.
On the occasion I had a tight case neck it never failed to show more pressure than my normal rounds that had plenty of clearance.
Maybe T.J. Jackson was shooting lighter loads?
Waterboy aka Lynn
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4Mesh
Guest
This entire post bears repeating. WIth included emphasis on the bolded part.
About the only conditions under which I would differ, would be for those with the equipment to make their own dies, reloading tools, and chamber their own rifles without using reamers, then some of the above statements about brass choices are no longer applicable. (very accurate in context tho). Beyond that, making something that works very well with a commercially made die is virtually a necessity.
Understanding what a die actually does to a piece of brass is unfortunately not often studied very closely (that I've seen in my travels anyhow).
I would also strongly disagree with the above statements about not needing experience shooting a cartridge in requisite to designing/refining it. But, only those with actual experience doing this would know how large a requirement that is.